[20:13:23] <[Mod]trooneh> EVERYONE BE QUIET AND LISTEN TO DIVINITY
[20:13:27] <[Ind]Palle> Hear hear, let us move on.
[20:13:28] <[Mod]trooneh> [Mod]Divinity: Go now
[20:13:29] <[Mod]trooneh> :P
[20:13:38] <[Mod]Divinity> alrighty
[20:13:56] <[Mod]Divinity> okay there we go
[20:14:00] <[]Cheefy> me and Arbaal on TOP!
[20:14:12] <Elron> ok you will now be voiced on YOUR go
[20:14:32] <[Mod]trooneh> okay
[20:15:41] <[Mod]Divinity> alright
[20:15:43] <[Mod]Divinity> here is how it is going to work
[20:15:54] <[Mod]Divinity> since nobody told me ahead of time what they wished to talk about, I am going to do this
[20:16:07] <[Mod]Divinity> I will say the topic, and then the alliances that wish to speak on it
[20:16:11] <[Mod]Divinity> will have ONE rep pm me
[20:16:12] <[Mod]Divinity> ONE
[20:16:22] <[Mod]Divinity> and I will voice the rep
[20:16:27] <[Mod]Divinity> so that they can talk for 2 minutes
[20:16:36] <[Mod]Divinity> after that they will be devoiced
[20:16:41] <[Mod]Divinity> and we will move on to the next
[20:17:43] <[Mod]Divinity> the first topic will be the Definition of a hostile
[20:17:50] <[Mod]Divinity> also included is 2v1 hostile
[20:18:56] <[SoF]IceChain> Hello
[20:18:57] <[Mod]Divinity> go ahead and talk :)
[20:19:08] <[SoF]IceChain> I believe that besides whatever Utopia defines as a hostile
[20:19:38] <[SoF]IceChain> a hostile is when one kingdom decides to work together to attempt to get a war with another. which they accomplish by making attacks and whatnot.
[20:19:51] <[SoF]IceChain> I don't really want to touch on 2v1 hostiles, however.
[20:19:56] <[Mod]Devil>  If you believe you should have got access to #alliance_summit , but don't got that ... please go to #access .Don't flood our mods. PMs will be ignored
[20:20:01] <[SoF]IceChain> And I'm done.
[20:20:03] <[SoF]IceChain> *bow*
[20:20:17] <[Mod]Divinity> thank you IceChain
[20:20:44] <[Mod]Divinity> I am waiting for any priv messages from alliances wishing to speak on the subject of hostiles
[20:21:09] <Elron> /msg [Mod]Divinity put your message here
[20:21:13] <Elron> in case you dont know how to do it
[20:21:42] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> I think there are many different types of hostiles, that have different objectives.  especially on the basis of alliances.  some are meant to show someone who's boss. others are just for war.  and in many cases its just to get land and honor
[20:21:59] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> it depends on what your objective is
[20:22:07] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> and thats all i wanted to say
[20:22:08] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> :P
[20:22:56] <[Mod]Divinity> go ahead DrAlex, my friend :P
[20:23:03] <[eX]DrAlex> When waving someone who is withing 15% of your networth, a hostile should be considered active whether there is any retallation or not.
[20:23:39] <[eX]DrAlex> After the wave starts, a certain time frame should be set where a kd can get their troops home, let their stealth and mana regenerate a little bit etc.
[20:24:07] <[eX]DrAlex> It takes a lot of resources to just make a wave, whether you get retalled or not. By jumping a kd right after a wave, it's a pretty weak act and screws over the kd that just waved
[20:24:44] <[eX]DrAlex> A certain period of time should be set, say 12 hours, that a kd is not allowed to be waved
[20:25:03] <[eX]DrAlex> I'm done :)
[20:25:04] <[Mod]Divinity> your two minutes are up, thank you DrAlex for your contribution to the subject.
[20:25:23] <[IND]Ragin> Your Designed hostile, creates the avian protection clause.  Any avian can get all troops home in 12 hours, and sit 90 dpa waiting to wave again.
[20:25:25] <[Mod]Divinity> Ragin, go ahead
[20:25:45] <[IND]Ragin> ^^its overly nice, and abused
[20:25:46] <[IND]Ragin> thats all
[20:27:27] <[Mod]Divinity> Abs said they wished to talk
[20:27:35] <[Mod]Divinity> whoever from Abs wants to talk (Zoot) then go ahead
[20:27:39] <[Abs]Zoot> ok
[20:28:14] <[Abs]Zoot> i think that initially, the potential for a hostile is there in lots of situations.  waving kingdoms, or escalating trading hits being a couple of examples
[20:28:30] <[Abs]Zoot> but that to truly be a hostile, there needs to be some kind of retaliation
[20:28:44] <[Abs]Zoot> until there is there is just the potential
[20:28:54] <[Abs]Zoot> and once its ceasefired, it isnt a hostile at all
[20:29:21] <[Abs]Zoot> protcting kingdoms who are in a fight, or in a situation with a lot of potential to become one is a good idea
[20:29:27] <[Abs]Zoot> protecting kingdoms who are feeding, is not
[20:29:40] <[Abs]Zoot> thats all
[20:29:48] <[Mod]trooneh> Thank you Abs
[20:30:03] <[Mod]Divinity> Eclipse is next
[20:30:05] <[Mod]trooneh> Also, debating will come after the different alliances giving their case on a certain matter
[20:30:26] <[Mod]Divinity> go ahead whoever wishes to speak, halla pmed me
[20:30:36] <[Eclipse]Selassie> oka
[20:30:47] <[Eclipse]skraz> The Definition of an active hostile, we believe that an active hostile is not active w/o the use of retaliation
[20:30:56] <[Eclipse]skraz> we believe that for a hostile to be taking place
[20:31:00] <[Eclipse]skraz> there needs to be action from both sides
[20:31:05] <[Eclipse]skraz> a wave of feeding is not a hostile
[20:31:05] <[Eclipse]skraz> however
[20:31:09] <[Eclipse]skraz> there should be a time frame
[20:31:16] <[Eclipse]skraz> upon which to allow the enemy kd to retal
[20:31:20] <[Eclipse]skraz> so cant wave seconds after a wave
[20:31:25] <[Eclipse]skraz> and claim its not hostile cause of no retal
[20:31:39] <[Eclipse]skraz> specifics of that time frame, we dont want to set yet, but it should be a fair while
[20:31:46] <[Eclipse]skraz> say 5-6 horus or so
[20:31:46] <[Eclipse]skraz> also
[20:31:49] <[Eclipse]skraz> if a CF is offered
[20:31:54] <[Eclipse]Illy> some kds choose to prepare for a retal wave for several hours
[20:31:55] <[Eclipse]skraz> we feel that is not a hostile
[20:31:58] <[Eclipse]skraz> but merely a feed
[20:32:02] <[Eclipse]skraz> thankyou
[20:32:03] <[Eclipse]skraz> that is all
[20:32:04] <[Eclipse]Selassie> Abs basically took the words out of our mouths, there are far too many situations that may evolve from a wave, so giving a waving KD a 12 hour mercy period is basically giving a free wave to organised kingdoms
[20:32:15] <[Mod]trooneh> Thank you Eclipse
[20:32:23] <[Mod]Divinity> next is TBH
[20:32:42] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> lol oh ho ho
[20:32:53] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> well ill leave this to my members
[20:32:57] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> ive said enough
[20:33:08] <[Mod]trooneh> Anyone from TBH have any comments.
[20:33:23] <[Mod]Divinity> that was very productive...
[20:33:30] <[Mod]Divinity> trooneh, please do the honors of devoicing them :)
[20:33:38] <[Mod]Divinity> NH is next
[20:34:05] <[NH]HiddenAce> I believe a hostile is not a wave... a hostile should be When both kingdoms have entered into attacks (3 retal hits maybe) but have yet to actually enter war..  a kingdom feeding off another kingdom shouldnt be protected by OOH... 
[20:34:28] <[NH]HiddenAce> Abs and Eclipse basically said everyhing i wanted to say
[20:34:40] <[Mod]trooneh> Okay. Thank you NH.
[20:35:19] <[Mod]trooneh> HaJ is up
[20:35:23] <[HaJ]Li0nHeart> For us
[20:35:34] <[HaJ]Li0nHeart> a double definition would be the following
[20:35:36] <[HaJ]Li0nHeart> Hostile def: KD. A is atacked by KD. B and in this time (we could say 12 hours as a time frame) a KD C. also atacks KD A. This should the def of double hostile on KD. A
[20:35:58] <[HaJ]Li0nHeart> this is kinda all i have to say on this matter
[20:36:06] <[HaJ]coig> thats part of it but not to be forgotten
[20:37:21] <[Mod]trooneh> Time is up HaJ thank you
[20:37:22] <[Mod]trooneh> Next up is CSB
[20:37:33] <[CSB]Hellrazor> • Thanks for the +v •
[20:37:48] <[CSB]Thingol> whoop :D
[20:37:48] <[CSB]Thingol> ok
[20:37:50] <[CSB]Thingol> here goes
[20:37:53] <[CSB]Danne>  I think maby you guys should only voice the guys who was up to represent the alliance? 
[20:37:53] <[CSB]Furto> it would been good if some common sence could be put in play here. Some kingoms, from different alliances, are tagging war and hostile without any reason. Also a problem in my eyes
[20:38:08] <[CSB]Thingol> basically there's a big difference between a onesided hostile and a truly active hostile where both parties are involved. imo a time frame is bs, its way to abusable. Same for a number of hits to make it active. Its far to abusable. When a hostile is one sided, meaning one kd is hitting only its simply a rape, and not a true hostile. It becomes an active hostile once the other party responds with hitting. Be that 1 min, 1 hr o
[20:38:09] <[CSB]Thingol> there
[20:38:11] <[CSB]Keth> <3 CSB
[20:38:20] <[Mod]trooneh> there
[20:38:24] <[Mod]trooneh> Only those repping
[20:38:48] <[CSB]Furto> a timeframe or something would be good in my eyes.
[20:38:54] <[CSB]Danne> it is 2min =p
[20:39:05] <[CSB]Furto> and some etics, but treat others how you want to be treaten....
[20:39:24] <[Mod]trooneh> Time is up. THanks CSB
[20:39:30] <[Mod]trooneh> Next up will be Lotus
[20:39:47] <[Lotus]Peppie> ah
[20:39:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> -->
[20:39:54] <[Lotus]Peppie> whenever a war has not yet been declared, it can be very hard to figure out whether theres hostile or not. We'd like to leave this part of hostilities in the open, but we do want to add that once a KD has declared/been declared, and has been tagged as such, there is NO EXCUSE to wave them anymore
[20:40:21] <[Lotus]Peppie> all the other stuff regarding timelimits and amount of attacks is just too hard to figure out imo
[20:40:37] <[Lotus]Arbulus> basicly once war is declared, the kd's involved lose the option to declare war on an other kd that should decide to hit into them
[20:40:42] <[Lotus]Peppie> but the declaration thing at least is clear, i think we could all agree on that?
[20:41:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> (all we had to say i think)
[20:41:12] <[Mod]trooneh> THank you Lotus
[20:41:31] <[Mod]Divinity> go ahead Yodel
[20:41:47] <[Ind]Yodel> :)
[20:42:08] <[Ind]Yodel> I think there is a big difference between a hostile and a wave....Alot of waves get tagged hostile but really arn't
[20:42:24] <[Ind]Yodel> I agree with basically eveyrone who says a hostile has hits from both sides
[20:42:38] <[Ind]Yodel> however htis can be misleading since a kd could retal with say magic...
[20:42:45] <[Ind]Yodel> and that wont show up in the paper..
[20:43:28] <[Ind]Yodel> a tagging of the kd that recieved a wave that they are in hostile would be good
[20:43:32] <[Mod]trooneh> Your time is up Yodel. THank you
[20:43:41] <[Mod]Divinity> We are going to voice everyone who is a rep.  We had some communication problems earlier, after the initial voicing please talk to the mods in #access if we do not get you voiced and you are a legit rep.
[20:44:01] <Elron> go for it Brado
[20:44:15] <[Ind]brado> hostile- anything that pushes the relations status to hostile. therefore an active hostile is any time KD a pushes their own meter to hostile w/ kd B
[20:44:24] <[Ind]brado> 2 sides dont have to be involved
[20:44:35] <[Ind]brado> as for double declares...
[20:44:41] <[Ind]brado> do ce's and if another kd has waved your target , instead of doing a 'timeframe'
[20:45:17] <[Ind]brado> just get in touch with the kd who got waved, to see if they will get involved, if they will not, the hostile imo. isnt active
[20:45:26] <[Ind]brado> thats all
[20:46:25] <[Mod]Divinity> go ahead Beta
[20:46:34] <[NI]Beta> alright
[20:46:51] <[NI]Beta> to sum up what NI has discussed on this issue..
[20:46:54] <[NI]Beta> A time needs to be devised for how long a hostile is active. Perhaps 6-12 hours from the initial hits (should make it more specific, i'm just giving a variation), assuming no retals have been made. I think this should also be in effect for hostiles where there have been hits in both directions but have died out. How many retals from the opposing kingdom needs to be noted since sometimes a couple people will make retals while the
[20:46:54] <[NI]Beta> For smaller kingdoms, the definition of how many hits makes a hostile also needs to be noted. As exodus pointed out to me earlier, with larger kingdoms you know when you're being waved. For smaller kingdoms this isn't necessarily the case. Maybe 3-4 hits on average an hour would count as a hostile, or something to that effect.
[20:46:56] <[NI]Beta> I also think that feeding shouldn't be protected, so around 10-15% at the start of hostile would be a good cutoff for a feeding wave vs. a real declaration.
[20:47:08] <[NI]Beta> that's all
[20:47:20] <[Mod]Divinity> NOTE: 450 characters is the cut off for each line!!!
[20:47:25] <[NI]Beta> arg
[20:47:29] <[NI]Beta> not posted entirely?
[20:47:35] <[Mod]Divinity> Be sure to watch what you paste
[20:47:40] <[Mod]Divinity> How many retals from the opposing kingdom needs to be noted since sometimes a couple people will make retals while the
[20:47:41] <[NI]Beta> A time needs to be devised for how long a hostile is active. Perhaps 6-12 hours from the initial hits (should make it more specific, i'm just giving a variation), assuming no retals have been made.
[20:47:43] <[Mod]Divinity> think it cut off there
[20:47:47] <[NI]Beta> I think this should also be in effect for hostiles where there have been hits in both directions but have died out. How many retals from the opposing kingdom needs
[20:47:51] <[NI]Beta> to be noted since sometimes a couple people will make retals while the kingdom has no real intentions of bringing relations to war.
[20:48:15] <[NI]Beta> For smaller kingdoms, the definition of how many hits makes a hostile also needs to be noted. As exodus pointed out to me earlier, with larger kingdoms you know when you're being waved.
[20:48:20] <[NI]Beta> For smaller kingdoms this isn't necessarily the case. Maybe 3-4 hits on average an hour would count as a hostile, or something to that effect.
[20:48:24] <[Lotus]Manimal> In order to have a policy in place that all kds are 'expected' to follow ... it's going to have to be very short and sweet.  ** Trying to incorporate some # of attacks, any timeframe, or the such will never work if we're actually trying to change the way kds behave.
[20:48:24] <[NI]Beta> I also think that feeding shouldn't be protected, so around 10-15% at the start of hostile would be a good cutoff for a feeding wave vs. a real declaration.
[20:48:34] <[NI]Beta> there you go i hope that all copied better :(
[20:48:44] <[Mod]Divinity> thank you Beta
[20:48:46] <[Mod]Divinity> go ahead siput
[20:48:54] <brother_siput> hie ,,,
[20:48:59] <brother_siput> i think
[20:49:07] <brother_siput> setting up a so called
[20:49:14] <brother_siput> cf in hostile is actualli
[20:49:18] <brother_siput> against the idea of the game ...
[20:49:24] <brother_siput> each time a kd does a wave
[20:49:26] <brother_siput> it takes a risk
[20:49:30] <[Lotus]Manimal> if we leave non-war-declared relations as fair game, and call war-declared relations off limits .. we could actually have a policy that kingdoms might follow ...
[20:49:40] <[Lotus]Manimal> otherwise we're wasting time here
[20:49:45] -> -[Lotus]Manimal- shup!
[20:49:58] <brother_siput> what u mean [Lotus]Arbulus
[20:50:04] <brother_siput> what u mean [Lotus]Manimal
[20:50:13] <brother_siput> i think that
[20:50:14] <brother_siput> u cant simply
[20:50:14] <[Mod]trooneh> [Lotus]Manimal wait your turn please
[20:50:20] <brother_siput> set up regulations
[20:50:22] <brother_siput> stating that
[20:50:28] <brother_siput> since im doing a wave now ...
[20:50:32] <brother_siput> i cant be hit for like 6 hrs ...
[20:51:08] <brother_siput> prolly 3 hrs is the max ..
[20:51:11] <brother_siput> if u wish 2 define it
[20:51:14] <brother_siput> anything more
[20:51:18] <brother_siput> ur giving an advantage
[20:51:21] <brother_siput> to the waving kd
[20:51:24] <brother_siput> furthermore
[20:51:36] <brother_siput> this summit is supposedly 2 be the voice of all kds
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[20:51:44] <brother_siput> most non top 50 kds
[20:51:55] <brother_siput> cant do 20 province waves anyways
[20:52:20] <brother_siput> therefore again ,,, it seems that if such a ruling is enforced
[20:52:26] <brother_siput> it only benefits the good kds
[20:52:31] <brother_siput> which results 2 powerplayin
[20:52:34] <brother_siput> as i see it
[20:52:56] <brother_siput> so i think if u wish to do a code of ethics
[20:52:59] <brother_siput> 3 hrs is the max
[20:53:05] <[CSB]Thingol> ok 2 min is far overdone now..
[20:53:47] * [Ind]brado pokes [Mod]Divinity
[20:53:49] <[Eclipse]skraz> mods?
[20:53:51] <[CSB]Thingol> so who's next?
[20:53:54] <[Mod]trooneh> 1 moment
[20:54:02] <[CSB]Thingol> else i'll start some promotional activities :)
[20:54:48] <[Mod]trooneh> PM me or nosajr if you wish to speak now on this topic
[20:55:09] <[Mod]nosajr> WHOEVER WOULD LIKE TO SPEAK PM ME or [Mod]trooneh
[20:55:39] <[Mod]nosajr> we're currently covering the definitions of hostile and double hostiles.
[20:56:02] <[Mod]ShadowV> RaR wantes to speak
[20:57:17] <[Mod]trooneh> RaR go ahead
[20:57:50] <[RAR]Kvick`-> Uhm, im just curious what the fruck we're trying to accomplish with this discussion...
[20:57:59] <[RAR]strongmace> This whole summit is a waste of time. There will be nobody to enforce anything that may be agreed upon here.  Also, none of the kingdoms that arent here, which is the majority of utopia, will be following anything decided here.  
[20:57:59] <Elron> lol @ fruck
[20:58:12] <[RAR]strongmace> I dont believe that a concensus will be reached here anyway.
[20:58:21] <[RAR]strongmace> Have fun with your masturbatory meeting.
[20:58:25] <[Ind]Yodel> ...
[20:58:29] <[CSB]Thingol> then i wonder why you are here...
[20:58:31] <[eX]Elrond> lol
[20:58:40] <[Eclipse]halla> SM FTW
[20:58:43] <[Mod]trooneh> ANYONE ELSE WISH TO SPEAK?
[20:59:03] <[Mod]nosajr> wth
[21:00:00] <[HaJ]coig> Can we accept the following.
[21:00:02] <[HaJ]coig> When war is declared a KD is not fair game.
[21:00:02] <[HaJ]coig> When there is mutual exchange of attacks it's an active hostile not to be interfered in.
[21:00:10] <[Mod]trooneh> You guys can discuss right now
[21:00:14] <[Ind]Yodel> I think 
[21:00:14] <[Lotus]Peppie> i agree to the first part :P
[21:00:23] <[Ind]Yodel> that magic should be included in the defention of a hostile
[21:00:28] <[eX]DrAlex> So everyone agrees that a kd, no matter who they wave, is fair game if the target doesn't hit back?
[21:00:28] <[Lotus]Peppie> manimal, restate your point :P
[21:00:30] <[eX]Elrond> yes ex agrees there
[21:00:37] <[Ind]brado> no dr alex
[21:00:44] <[Abs]Zoot> or doesnt intend to hit back
[21:00:44] <[Ind]Yodel> and no dralex
[21:00:47] <[Ind]brado> what if the kd plans on waiting before they wave?
[21:00:52] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> ok
[21:00:55] <[Ind]brado> due to whatever
[21:00:57] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> I have some questions
[21:01:08] <[Lotus]Arbulus> i think the easiest definition would be when war is declared, a ton of rules and exeptions will be unenforcable and uncomprehendable
[21:01:10] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> I want a definition of a feeding kd and fighting
[21:01:13] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> then
[21:01:17] <[Ind]Yodel> how about if a kd gets waved and wants to retal they tag hostile?
[21:01:24] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> how will we prevend fake hostile tagging?
[21:01:29] <[NoX]Timekeeper> why do u ppl always try to define things?
[21:01:34] <[eX]Elrond> the fake taging is annoying already
[21:01:35] <[Lotus]Manimal>  In order to have a policy in place that all kds are 'expected' to follow ... it's going to have to be very short and sweet.  ** Trying to incorporate some # of attacks, any timeframe, or the such will never work if we're actually trying to change the way kds behave.
[21:01:40] <[NoX]Timekeeper> just so later u can claim that someone broke the rules?
[21:01:40] <[Lotus]Manimal>  In order to have a policy in place that all kds are 'expected' to follow ... it's going to have to be very short and sweet.  ** Trying to incorporate some # of attacks, any timeframe, or the such will never work if we're actually trying to change the way kds behave.
[21:01:43] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> nice
[21:01:44] <[Lotus]Manimal> there, I said it twice :D
[21:01:47] <[NI]Beta> based on what I've seen so far, it seems like getting any agreement on definitions will be rather difficult
[21:01:47] <[eX]DrAlex> please dont spam
[21:01:51] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> thank you for the attention
[21:01:53] <[Ind]Yodel> well if you get waved and dont' want to hit back...then you wouldn't wanna tag hostile to protect your agressor now would you?
[21:01:55] <[Lotus]Manimal> i want it to be read
[21:02:42] <[NI]Beta> We have some sects that want no definitions, some that are on one end of the picket fence and others on another end. How are we going to bring an agreement from all sides based on that?
[21:03:00] <[eX]DrAlex> At this point of time, people are waving other kds whenever they feel like it
[21:03:05] <[Lotus]Manimal> basically the only policy I can see kds actually adopting is to stay the heck away from kds that have a war declared and are waiting for it to start .... anything else will be too complicated and will NEVER be followed by more than a handful of kds.
[21:03:10] <[eX]DrAlex> This meeting is to try to clear things out
[21:03:12] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> also what will happen if kd A waves kd B right after kd B did a wave?and the armies of kd B will be back in more than 12 hours(that can happen in the begining of the age)
[21:03:35] <[NoX]Timekeeper> DrAlex, thats not true
[21:03:41] <[Ind]brado> soul hunter > i think that kd A should ask KD c (the kd that kd b waved) if they will get involved, FIRST
[21:03:48] <[HaLL]Stoffer> how about something like this 
[21:03:48] <[HaLL]Stoffer> §1 : Waves done to kingdoms less than 85% your kingdoms nw can not be considered hostile.
[21:03:49] <[HaLL]Stoffer> §2 : Exceptions from §1 if atleast 50% of the attacks are retalled
[21:03:49] * [HaLL]Stoffer was kicked by bender.us.utonet.org (Flooding (Limit is 3 lines per 2 seconds))
[21:03:53] <[Lotus]Arbulus> there are so many variables, i think the only thing a consesus should be formable on is when war is declared
[21:03:55] <[Ind]brado> and if kd c doesnt plan on warring, kd a is fair game
[21:03:57] <[NoX]Timekeeper> u dont see that many double waves nowadays
[21:04:03] <[Eclipse]Selassie> Eclipse are of the opinion that there is no real way to define a hostile, there are too many variables, and after all, this is a WAR game, and as the old saying goes, all is fair in love and war.
[21:04:11] <[Eclipse]Selassie> Also, if there were rules put into place to prevent such foul play, there is no way of preventing EVERY kingdom in the game from breaking those rules.
[21:04:13] <[eX]DrAlex> Maybe not 2 kds doubling up on 1
[21:04:15] <[Ind]brado> agrred selassie
[21:04:21] <[Lotus]Peppie> Dudes, what manimal says makes sense. Theres too many possible situations one can think of, any rules of agreements would have tons of exceptions. 
[21:04:29] <[eX]Elrond> Eclipse reasoning will lead to serious conflicts
[21:04:38] <[Ind]brado> whats wrong with that?
[21:04:39] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> please remain silent  argue on suggestions stop saying there are variations
[21:04:41] <[Lotus]Peppie> eclipse reasoning has some sense to it though
[21:04:43] <[Ind]brado> isnt that the point of this game elrond
[21:04:55] <Elron> omghi2u |Duriel|
[21:04:56] <[eX]Elrond> we are not talking 1 vs 1 conflicts
[21:05:00] <[eX]Elrond> but sure
[21:05:20] <[eX]DrAlex> If there is no defined hostile, then what protects a kd from being doubled up on? Their alliance? "Ethics"?
[21:05:20] <[Eclipse]skraz> elrond - how do you define - we offered ideas of tiem frame etc
[21:05:22] <[Eclipse]skraz> but honestly
[21:05:25] <[Eclipse]skraz> how will you police that?
[21:05:41] <[Lotus]Manimal> non-war-declared relations should be left as fair game ... war-declared relations should be considered off-limits to outsiders.  ** Anything more complicated than this could never be adopted or enforced.  ** If we want to continue with the convoluted definitions/suggestions ... we might as well admit up front that we don't intend to accomplish anything here today.
[21:05:41] <[eX]Elrond> its very easy to monitor someting like that
[21:05:46] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> well time frames cannot be equal in the begining of an age and at the end
[21:05:49] <[Eclipse]skraz> for US yes
[21:05:54] <[Eclipse]skraz> but tell that to the majority of utopia
[21:05:55] <[Eclipse]skraz> that isnt here
[21:05:56] <[Abs]Zoot> ok, i got something to say 
[21:06:06] <[eX]Elrond> so I guess I and some ex kds can chainwave an eclipse kd now then 
[21:06:13] <[Abs]Zoot> most of the time, its not hard to look at individual situations on a case by case basis and work out for urself if there is an active conflict going on before ur kingdom attacks
[21:06:22] <[Abs]Zoot> its natural that kingdoms try to look for fights where they have some kind of advantage, thats standard procedure for ANY kingdom
[21:06:33] <[Abs]Zoot> the problem lies when unscrupulous kingdoms try and find those advantages by not fighting 1 on 1 - or on the flipside to that, kingdoms who arent really involved in a fight at all try and find a way to escape fighting a more prepared kingdom by claiming foul play and calling in their alliance
[21:06:46] <[Abs]Zoot> adding strict protocols that define a hostile such as durations and numbers of hits wont accurately reflect the many different shapes and forms a hostile comes in, so for genuine "grey area" fights there will still be room for doubt
[21:06:55] <[eX]Elrond> of course it will not
[21:06:59] <[AoD]Frost> I think its important to note that purpose is key.  If seven KDs each and independently wave one, that one will never possibly wave back - This is almost a blank check for alliance gangbangs, since with no retals it isn't an active hostile and additional hits are free-for-all.  Perhaps a limit of two to three (2-3) waves in 48 hours?  Sort of a throw-back to the old "declare hostile" and "Peace-block" days.
[21:07:00] <[IND]KellawTA> Can we get into the topic of double hostile?
[21:07:07] <[Eclipse]skraz> elrond look at our first post - we want time frames and some protection
[21:07:08] <[Eclipse]skraz> but
[21:07:11] <[Abs]Zoot> but, having a strict definition like that will still allow unscrupulous kingdoms to play dirty
[21:07:14] <[Eclipse]skraz> there are a lot of grey areas
[21:07:19] <[Abs]Zoot> by hitting within a set margin of hits, or waving 1 minute after the duration ends, or playing a fast attack time and heavy elite defence strategy which allows them to feed safely, etc
[21:07:20] <[Eclipse]skraz> and we dont want definitions
[21:07:23] <[Eclipse]skraz> to be used as excuses
[21:07:26] <[Eclipse]skraz> to powerplay
[21:07:35] <[Mod]nosajr> PLEASE LET'S STAY ON TOPIC AND NOT DEBATE IF IT'S A WAR GAME OR NOT. IF YOU CAN WAIT FOR OTHERS TO FINISH A BIT BEFORE THIS GETS WAY OUT OF HAND.
[21:07:35] <[Abs]Zoot> my point being: maybe lacking a definition of whats a hostile is not the real problem, the problem is the doublestandards that many wish to apply when they play the game
[21:07:46] <[Abs]Zoot> providing a badly equipped definition they can wield in defence of these actions maybe simply aggravate the problems we already face
[21:07:50] <[HaLL]Stoffer> i have a suggestion but i cant paste it here due to flood protection 
[21:07:56] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> but if you do not have definitions rules can be misinterpreted
[21:07:59] <[Abs]Zoot> encouraging our kingdoms to fight fair, and alliance leaderships being willing to look at situations from as objective a position as possible, rather than just fight their own corner at all costs, seems to me to be a better place to start
[21:07:59] <[eX]Elrond> There is a reason there is a 24 hours cf period after a war is fought. Even though most hostiles are not as intense, a cf period after a wave is to be prefered. I mean if there is no retals I guess its ok to wave a kingdom already being waved all the time, no? Imo when a kingdom wave an other it is a challange to an 1 vs 1 conflict. During a certain timeframe noone is to interfere even if the waved kingdom do or do not retal. Everythi
[21:08:01] <[Abs]Zoot> thats all
[21:08:11] <[Lotus]Arbulus> so many variables can be defined, tons more will be left unexplained, why cant we simply agree (for starters anyway) that once WAR has been declared, the kd's involved are off limits as being in an active-hostile?
[21:08:16] <[Ind]brado> if ppl REALLY wanted
[21:08:17] <[CSB]Thingol> the great CSB alliance would like to point out that, we (the great CSB alliance) believe hostiles should be done the way CSB (whitch is great) does them
[21:08:20] <[eX]Elrond> lol
[21:08:24] <[eX]Elrond> this aint working
[21:08:28] <[Ind]brado> to moderate the way double hostiles are going these days
[21:08:28] <[Eclipse]skraz> elrond?
[21:08:35] <[Eclipse]skraz> your telling me
[21:08:36] <[Ind]brado> the only thing i see working, is a UN type coalition
[21:08:38] <[Eclipse]skraz> you should have 24 hours
[21:08:41] <[eX]Elrond> no
[21:08:44] * [Ind]Yodel agrees with zoot
[21:08:45] <[Eclipse]skraz> to feed on a kd?
[21:08:45] <[eX]Elrond> not at all
[21:08:48] <[eX]Elrond> read it again
[21:08:52] <[Eclipse]skraz> please clarify for me then
[21:09:07] <[Mod]Morgana> FIRE CALL [Sorry be back as soon as possible] Cant change my name
[21:09:21] <[eX]Elrond> but some kind of timeframe after u challnage a kd to an 1 vs 1 conflict
[21:09:25] <[Lotus]Peppie> i dont think a utopian policing institution is 1) viable 2) going to work 3) going to be accepted 4) an option 5) on topic
[21:09:27] <[Eclipse]skraz> yeah
[21:09:29] <[Eclipse]skraz> elrond we said that
[21:09:33] <[Eclipse]skraz> in our original speech
[21:09:33] <[eX]Elrond> yes
[21:09:36] <[Ind]Striker073> the problem is deciding on a timeframe
[21:09:38] <[Eclipse]skraz> we agree whole heartedly with you there
[21:09:38] <[eX]Elrond> but ur timeframe is too short
[21:09:49] <[Ind]Striker073> and how many hits retaliatory hits should be considered a hostile
[21:09:52] <[Ind]Striker073> and not a feeding wave
[21:09:54] <[Ind]brado> a timeframe cannot work
[21:09:56] <[Ind]brado> ever
[21:09:56] <[Ind]Striker073> 1? 2? 3?
[21:10:02] <[eX]Elrond> of course it can work
[21:10:05] <[Ind]Striker073> well then no one will ever agree on anything
[21:10:05] <[IND]KellawTA> it might be long for a kd but short for another
[21:10:08] <[Eclipse]Selassie> there are far too many variables Elrond
[21:10:14] <[eX]Elrond> no its not
[21:10:14] <[Ind]brado> what if a kd who gets waved decides to wait
[21:10:15] <[UA]GryFalcon> (even if we don't all agree. There is some benefit to making a given alliance's position explicit. Then we all know how they're going to view our actions whether we happen to agree or not...  )
[21:10:19] <[HaLL]Stoffer> §1 : Waves done to kingdoms less than 85% your kingdoms nw can not be considered hostile.
[21:10:19] <[HaLL]Stoffer> §2 : Exceptions from §1 if atleast 50% of the attacks are retalled
[21:10:19] <[HaLL]Stoffer> §3 : War declared - well says it all...it is a definate hostile.
[21:10:22] <[Ind]brado> to retaliate
[21:10:24] <[eX]Elrond> indeed
[21:10:25] <[HaLL]Stoffer> - Single random hits cannot be expected to do CE prior to attacking.
[21:10:26] <[HaLL]Stoffer> - Waving kingdoms should be expected to have done CE prior to waves.
[21:10:26] <[HaLL]Stoffer> - Hostile means within 1 attack cycle.
[21:10:31] <[Mod]nosajr> HOLD ON. 
[21:10:32] <[HaLL]Stoffer> thats our suggestion 
[21:10:39] <[Mod]nosajr> this is gonna get way out of control too fast.
[21:10:42] <[Mod]nosajr> just hold on
[21:10:46] <[eX]Elrond> I cant even find time to read half whats posted
[21:10:47] <[Eclipse]Selassie> common sence plays a huge part, but the kingdoms that aren't here don't know about any rulings
[21:11:02] <[Mod]nosajr> so far, let me try to put this into perspective.
[21:11:06] <[NOX]dragos> <3
[21:11:17] <[Lotus]Peppie> [21:10:15] <[UA]GryFalcon> (even if we don't all agree. There is some benefit to making a given alliance's position explicit. Then we all know how they're going to view our actions whether we happen to agree or not...  ) <------ this makes good sense
[21:11:21] <[Eclipse]Selassie> and not everyone has common sence, or enough game knowledge to put that common sence into practise
[21:11:32] <[HaLL]Stoffer> i think the idea here to talk about some guideline between the alliances 
[21:11:48] <[HaLL]Stoffer> so the rest of utopia knows how we define stuff
[21:12:00] <[Lotus]Peppie> mods, maybe its time to get everyone to shup again so every attending alliance etc can state their policy on doublehostile behaviour etc
[21:12:07] <[HaLL]Stoffer> and if they want to play by that fine, if not then they know what they can expect 
[21:12:10] <[Lotus]Peppie> then this meeting is good for something at least :P
[21:12:14] <[Ind]brado> hasnt that already been done peppie
[21:12:20] <[Ind]Striker073> 50% of the attacks retalled?
[21:12:23] <[ReV]Antriarc> To come to a common agreement between all of is the only goal here today...and the leaders of the alliance who agree to it will be the ones who have to enforce it.
[21:12:25] <[CSB]Thingol> its simple really, why is there so much talk needed. As soon as 2 kds are hitting each other its a hostile. When a kd declared war upon the other its a no go for waves.
[21:12:32] <[Ind]Striker073> that's a bit high don't you think?
[21:12:48] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> lol it was so good when each alliance had its part of the time now its a mess
[21:12:58] <[Ind]brado> thngol > both kds dont need to be involved for it to be hostile
[21:13:01] <[NI]Beta> thingol that's the ideal situation
[21:13:11] <[Ind]Striker073> what if a kd waves and the other kingdom only hits back twice thingol
[21:13:12] <[Ind]Striker073> is that a hostile?
[21:13:14] <[NI]Beta> but i think the discussion is when one kingdom is just doing a couple random retals or not retalling at all
[21:13:15] <[Ind]brado> hostile by definition is showing an ill will towards someone
[21:13:18] <[CSB]Thingol> that is the simplified situation
[21:13:27] <[Mod]Devil>  All access issues seem to be solved now. Otherwise they can join #access
[21:13:46] <[Mod]nosajr> OK EVERYONE STOP OR ELSE I -v EVERYONE.  
[21:13:49] <[CSB]Thingol> FW = no hostile. Fake tags = source of all evil. Waving a kd thats in hostile = crap
[21:14:06] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> better -v all
[21:14:54] <[Mod]nosajr> this needs to stay on topic. I understand you might not all agree, but this is not a discussion about english definitions. what this is supposed to be about is having some sort of guidelines that you can all agree on. some might not like it as much, but please try to compromise
[21:15:09] <[Mod]Divinity> yes, thank you nosaj
[21:15:32] <[Mod]Divinity> okay, let me bring up the ideas that people have said
[21:15:33] <[Mod]nosajr> if you can show each other a BIT of respect, without losing your tempers, then this might work out better
[21:15:50] <[Mod]Divinity> Alright let's start with some of the easy stuff.
[21:16:02] <[Mod]nosajr> so far, we have some semi-agreed upon definitions of what a hostile is
[21:16:04] <[Mod]Divinity> -If people declare war, then they have protection against waving or hitting.
[21:16:11] <[Mod]Divinity> are there any problems with that?
[21:16:14] <[Mod]nosajr> the sticking point, is what a double declare/hostile is
[21:16:18] <[Ind]brado> protection from whon?
[21:16:26] <[Ind]brado> whom*
[21:16:30] <[Mod]Divinity> from being waved...
[21:16:34] <[Abs]Zoot> yeh there are problems with that
[21:16:38] <[Ind]brado> whos to stop a kingdom though?
[21:16:43] <[Lotus]Peppie> no problems here
[21:16:46] <[Abs]Zoot> for example
[21:16:50] <[OA]h[OA]gie> first off...
[21:16:56] <[Abs]Zoot> ghetto A hits me enough for me to declare war
[21:16:57] <[OA]h[OA]gie> what do we want to decide on?
[21:16:59] <[OA]h[OA]gie> rules or guidelines?
[21:16:59] <[Abs]Zoot> i wave good kingdom B
[21:17:02] <[Abs]Zoot> and declare ghetto A
[21:17:02] <[OA]h[OA]gie> rules are strict
[21:17:05] <[Mod]nosajr> hold on let Zoot speak
[21:17:06] <[Abs]Zoot> am I protected?
[21:17:20] <[Ind]brado> even if you are, whos going to protect you?
[21:17:29] <[eX]Manny> not if you make a wanky ooh wave like that
[21:17:44] <[eX]Manny> only I know to have done that for 5 ages was wrath lol
[21:17:45] <[Abs]Zoot> so then declaring war isnt completely protected
[21:17:48] <[Ind]brado> why manny
[21:17:49] <[UA]GryFalcon> (It's a good point... i think in all of this our actions have to be in good faith though )
[21:17:56] <[EnD]Sergiu> technically, you wouldn't be protected since it takes some time to get to war 
[21:18:00] <[Abs]Zoot> well, that was the case in point i thought of Manny, but ive seen it done before
[21:18:02] <[eX]Manny> its such a small point, we dont need to debate it
[21:18:03] <[Ind]brado> his kingdom took 2 kingdoms on at once
[21:18:04] <[CSB]Thingol> [##:##] <[Abs]Zoot> i wave good kingdom B
[21:18:04] <[CSB]Thingol> [##:##] <[Abs]Zoot> and declare ghetto A
[21:18:04] <[Mod]Divinity> brado, we aren't going to set up a policing system
[21:18:10] <brother_siput> manny if its abt protection shldnt eX be protecting them then
[21:18:11] <[CSB]Thingol> = farming a kd and escaping in a war
[21:18:16] <[Ind]brado> i think both kds should be allowed to hit his kd then
[21:18:20] <[Mod]Divinity> it is an honor system, that is policed by your friends/allies/alliances
[21:18:23] <brother_siput> or whatever alliance they are in
[21:18:23] <[Abs]Zoot> right
[21:18:23] <[CSB]Thingol> i thought we were talking about real wars
[21:18:28] * WaZZa|gone was kicked by ChanServ (KICK by [Mod]Matty (chan is full))
[21:18:31] <[Abs]Zoot> so ur saying, if u start 2 fights yourself
[21:18:36] <[Abs]Zoot> and then declare war with 1 of them
[21:18:40] <[Abs]Zoot> both kds can still retal?
[21:18:42] <[Ind]brado> why not?
[21:18:47] <[NI]Cazzius> that should be fairly logical , if you wave first and then jump into declare with an other kd you should not be protected ofcourse Zoot.
[21:18:48] <[eX]Manny> that is a -very- grey area, and doesnt matter since its only seen once every year or so
[21:18:51] <[eX]Manny> that is a -very- grey area, and doesnt matter since its only seen once every year or so
[21:18:53] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> what happens if super kd A has 25 provinces on 5000 akres and kd B has 10 and 15 on 1000-2000 ,and kd A decides to wave kd B?
[21:18:59] <[eX]Manny> lets talk about REAL things :)
[21:19:03] <[Eclipse]skraz> all this
[21:19:04] <[Eclipse]skraz> "what if
[21:19:06] <[NI]Cazzius> why wave 2 kds then Zoot, if you do, you better take the beating :)
[21:19:07] <[Eclipse]skraz> is pointless raelly
[21:19:10] <[Abs]Zoot> manny i can think of 2 times itts happened
[21:19:11] <[Eclipse]skraz> we know itll be abused
[21:19:12] <[Abs]Zoot> in 2 ages
[21:19:16] <[Eclipse]skraz> we know not all things can be taken into account
[21:19:18] <[Abs]Chai> Grey my ass.  That IS a real thing.  That's the kind of thing an alliancewar happens over.
[21:19:19] <[Abs]Zoot> thats not that rare
[21:19:22] <[Eclipse]skraz> thats why somethign simple
[21:19:22] <[YYA]NeoTaz> YYA is not impressed with this facade. May the dolpins have you all -.- *rides off on Burt into the sunset*
[21:19:24] <[NI]Beta> kingdoms deserve the right to retal
[21:19:24] <[Eclipse]skraz> should be thought up
[21:19:26] <[Eclipse]skraz> and then case by case
[21:19:28] <[Eclipse]skraz> after that
[21:19:32] <[Abs]Chai> If that's not the kind of topic designed to be brought up here, nothing is
[21:19:39] <[NI]Cazzius> I belive a normal declare should be considered as a protection , exceptions should be easy to spot
[21:19:45] <[eX]Manny> hostile definition is the bigger one 
[21:19:46] <[NI]Beta> if you wave 2 kingdoms and war 1, if the other retals then that's your mistake for waving 2
[21:19:53] <[Abs]Zoot> right, but it touches on part of a bigger problem
[21:19:54] <[eX]Manny> once we go through that we can work out the smaller issues
[21:19:55] <brother_siput> not actualli
[21:19:56] <[Abs]Zoot> that is a huge issue
[21:19:58] <[Ind]brado> i agree with beta
[21:19:59] <brother_siput> wat if kd one says no war
[21:20:00] <[CSB]Thingol> its simply the game mechanics that allow this double waving, its simple courtesy/honor/whatever to not interfere when 2 kds declared war and are in the period between war/hostile
[21:20:01] <brother_siput> so u wave kd 2
[21:20:05] <[Abs]Zoot> and that is, a kingdom attacking 2 kingdoms
[21:20:06] <brother_siput> then kd 1 decides 2 hit back
[21:20:08] <[Abs]Zoot> getting retalled by both
[21:20:12] <[Abs]Zoot> and the claiming 2 on 1
[21:20:18] <[Ind]brado> it is 2 on 1
[21:20:20] <[Mod]Divinity> okay guys, stop the spamming
[21:20:20] <[NI]Beta> you get a CF, brother_siput, before declaring the second
[21:20:21] <[eX]Manny> if you wave a kd, expected retals, if you wave 2 kds, expect the same
[21:20:23] <[Ind]brado> but the kd asked to get that
[21:20:23] <[Abs]Chai> yes, well, let's cut through it.  let me put forth an outrageous concept, Cazzius: EVERYONE HERE KNOWS A HOSTILE WHEN THEY SEE IT.  that having been said, people love land, and people REALLY love -free- land, and, as such, people PRETEND they don't know what's going on to be able to feign legitimacy for actions they know to be bullshit.
[21:20:33] <[Abs]Zoot> manny, and if u just hit a kingdom 3x?
[21:20:33] <[Mod]Divinity> I think most people agree that if it goes to war, then there should be protection
[21:20:36] <[Abs]Zoot> or 1x?
[21:20:37] <[Mod]Divinity> doesn't matter if it is a ghetto or not
[21:20:44] <[eX]Manny> that is what defining a hostile would help with 
[21:20:46] <[Mod]Divinity> most of the top Kingdoms think most are ghettoes
[21:20:53] <[NOX]dragos> man those rules CANNOT be set ! The game is made for rules to be broken or abused...so until there are some new cahnges into the hostile relations from game we can't do anything...imo !
[21:20:53] <[Abs]Zoot> no it doesnt help
[21:20:58] <[Abs]Zoot> if i get attacked by a kingdom
[21:20:59] <[Abs]Zoot> just once
[21:21:00] <[ReV]Antriarc> Any war should cancel out any remaining retals...that is only the right thing to do.
[21:21:00] <[EnD]Sergiu> I think that the cases and exception this brings up could only be resolved if you make some kind of court that decides on a case to case basis, which is not that easy to do
[21:21:01] <[Eclipse]skraz> defining a gostile is hard
[21:21:02] <[Eclipse]skraz> smaller kds
[21:21:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> chai speaks sense :P
[21:21:03] <[Abs]Zoot> and i CE and they are heading into war
[21:21:09] <[Eclipse]skraz> cant have the same activity
[21:21:10] <[Eclipse]skraz> as larger
[21:21:11] <[Abs]Zoot> we will still retal
[21:21:15] <[Eclipse]skraz> its all relative
[21:21:27] <brother_siput> [NI]Beta : if we wate for a cf from every kd we wave ... damn im gonna be waiting till end of age dude
[21:21:30] <[Abs]Zoot> unless they attacked before the war was declared
[21:21:32] <brother_siput> *wait
[21:21:35] <[eX]Manny> if a kd gets waved by another kd, they -always- have the right to retal
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[21:21:40] <[Abs]Chai> and if Manny thinks he can't remember any kingdoms that've tried making horseshit waves to get protection to avoid getting waved, he clearly doesn't know his own alliance, or half the rest of Utopia
[21:21:47] <[Abs]Zoot> manny, u talk of waves all the time
[21:21:50] <[Abs]Zoot> my kd doesnt wave a lot
[21:21:51] <[Abs]Zoot> we get into fights
[21:21:54] <[Abs]Zoot> so 
[21:22:01] <[Abs]Zoot> if someone hits us 3x
[21:22:05] <[Abs]Zoot> we might retal 10x
[21:22:07] <[Abs]Zoot> did they wave us?
[21:22:10] <[NI]Beta> then brother_siput you hope that if kingdom 1 says they won't retal then they don't, or u mess them up later because they lied and screwed you
[21:22:13] <[Lotus]Peppie> errr, lets not have an abs vs exodus thing please?
[21:22:15] <[Mod]Divinity> guys isn't it pretty simple...if you get hit as you are going into war that is an OOW hit
[21:22:18] <[Abs]Chai> what "right to retal" is there?  you have a right to retal if you have 1) offense, 2) an attack button.
[21:22:19] <[Mod]Divinity> you retal it yourself :)
[21:22:29] <[NOX]dragos> you all better talk to Mehul and tell him about some protection for the KD's who were waved 1'st time...like 20% defence bonus or something like that ! 
[21:22:42] <brother_siput> nice dragos
[21:22:44] <[ReV]Antriarc> save the retals for later :) after war you can get better gains :P
[21:22:45] <brother_siput> actualli
[21:22:46] <[Abs]Chai> you have a right to about as much land as you can hold, and nothing else.  why is there an inherent "right to retal" in response to a wave?
[21:22:49] <[CSB]Danne> what is the current topic ? =P 
[21:22:55] <[CSB]Thingol> lol Danne
[21:22:57] <[CSB]Thingol> lazy fool
[21:22:59] <brother_siput> just jump right in danne
[21:23:00] <[eX]DrAlex> good question danne
[21:23:09] <[IND]KellawTA> tell them to block outside attacks when 2 kds are in hostile would be better
[21:23:11] <[Ind]brado> chai > "why is there an inherent "right to retal" in response to a wave?"
[21:23:13] <[Ind]brado> why not?
[21:23:25] <[Abs]Zoot> noone has a god given right to the retal
[21:23:27] <[Lotus]Peppie> [Mod]Divinity, this is a noble initiative but if people cant agree to keep their hands off KDs who have already declared or have been declared on, then there is no way on earth anyone is going to agree on what constitutes a (double) hostile
[21:23:35] <[ReV]Antriarc> Yeah, mehul should automaticly make it when war is preparing you cant attack that kd 
[21:23:35] <[eX]Manny> if you hit me, I will hit you, regardless of anything else
[21:23:36] <[NOX]dragos> don't block any attack...just offer a boost in ME to the Kd that was waved
[21:23:43] <[Lotus]Peppie> for the sake of keeping this meeting interesting, can we move on to the next topic and consider this matter failed?
[21:23:56] <[Eclipse]skraz> peppie
[21:23:58] <[IND]KellawTA> i second peppie
[21:23:59] <[Eclipse]skraz> that was the smartest thing
[21:24:00] <[Eclipse]skraz> you have said
[21:24:02] <[eX]DrAlex> Well kds that have already declared are totally out of touch... I think the real issue is when kds are waving/waved and the time after that
[21:24:03] <[Eclipse]skraz> lol
[21:24:12] <[OA]h[OA]gie> just use common sense
[21:24:15] <[eX]Manny> yes like Alex said
[21:24:19] <[Ind]brado> dr alex
[21:24:22] <[eX]Manny> thats the BIG issue here
[21:24:22] <[Ind]brado> timeframe is garbage
[21:24:24] <[ReV]Antriarc> I think some sort of MOD vote would be good. They put it to some sort of opinion and we all say yay or nay and its over with after that
[21:24:25] <[NI]Cazzius> common sense is not common in Utopia :)
[21:24:30] <[OA]h[OA]gie> strict rules arent needed
[21:24:30] <[Abs]Zoot> the real issue isnt just the one u find important
[21:24:37] <[Mod]nosajr> hold on
[21:24:38] <[Abs]Zoot> its the fact we all find different things important
[21:24:41] <[Abs]Zoot> thats why we are here
[21:24:41] <[eX]Elrond> this was fun..good luck manny and alex
[21:24:42] <[OA]h[OA]gie> nor will rules be effective
[21:24:45] <[CSB]Danne> I would say about 3 ages ago mutal respect worked in this game... but latley it has just gone worse... the personal vendettas grown larger and this is a growing problem.. having a meeting trying to decide it wont help peoples will always try to solve their own vendettas since alot in this game is stubborn and wont let them go anyways... what a thng like this can do is rather make trubble and war since most likley peoples will take their 
[21:24:50] <[CSB]Danne> personal vendettas over what we come up with her
[21:24:52] <[Mod]nosajr> HOLD ON OR ELSE I WILL REMOVE -v
[21:25:08] <[Mod]nosajr> this is not about eX vs ABS. which it's slowly turning into...
[21:25:14] * Redwingsfan is now known as [LPL]Redwingsfan
[21:25:16] <[Mod]nosajr> it's supposed to be as close to compromise as posible
[21:25:34] <[Mod]nosajr> i know it's hard for both of you...
[21:25:40] <[Mod]nosajr> but let others try to chime in?
[21:25:44] <[Ind]brado> how can we compromise on a guideline that covers more things than we can possibly bring up here?
[21:25:50] <[DEN]SuT9k> A question from a 3th person... Instead of using soo much time, getting nowhere. Why dont you just get it over with it, and get the war going here.. Official, soo everyone can knows not to touch you.. War, and get it over with it!
[21:26:15] <[Mod]nosajr> too bad. not on topic.
[21:26:17] <[Ind]Striker073> let's face it
[21:26:23] <[Ind]Striker073> the problem is Mefool
[21:26:27] <[Ind]Striker073> and his dumb relations system
[21:26:27] <[Eclipse]skraz> amen
[21:26:35] <[eX]DrAlex> Lets rise up against him, and fight the power!
[21:26:37] <[Eclipse]skraz> a more concise relations system is needed
[21:26:42] <[NoX]Timekeeper> its not that bad striker
[21:26:43] <[Abs]Zoot> or the problem is that kingdoms are supposed to be strong enough to fight their own battles
[21:26:46] <[Abs]Zoot> or lose everything they have
[21:26:50] <[NoX]Timekeeper> its very open for loopholes but still
[21:26:56] <[Abs]Zoot> they arent supposed to call in another 10 kingdoms to back them up
[21:26:57] <[Ind]Yodel> I think the idea about mutual respect is the best way to solve this
[21:27:04] <[LPL]Redwingsfan> hrm
[21:27:05] <[eX]DrAlex> Amen zoot
[21:27:06] <[ReV]Antriarc> That is a definate, because preparing for war does not even register as a war so its open for hits..which is when most problems come.
[21:27:10] <[NoX]Timekeeper> yodel, no such thing as mutual respect
[21:27:16] <[NoX]Timekeeper> call it status quo of fear
[21:27:18] <[Ind]Yodel> any attacking kd should make it there duty to find out if the kd that they are going to attack is currently in a hostile with someone else 
[21:27:23] <[Ind]Striker073> ya
[21:27:25] <[Ind]Yodel> well
[21:27:26] <[Ind]Yodel> if there was
[21:27:29] <[Ind]Striker073> most people only respect power in this game
[21:27:30] <[Ind]Yodel> this game wouldn't be dying
[21:27:33] <sasquatch> how do we get back the mutaual respect of 3 ages ago?
[21:27:33] <[Ind]Striker073> and will take advantage of anyone else
[21:27:36] <[ReV]Antriarc> That means a message each time you want to random?
[21:27:38] <[IND]KellawTA> the problem is there is no way to find out
[21:27:44] <[Ind]brado> CE
[21:27:46] <[Ind]Yodel> with hundreds of pro players quitting every age because of how bad the sportsmanship has gotten
[21:27:48] <[Ind]brado> in game msg
[21:27:50] <[Ind]brado> irc
[21:27:55] <[Mod]Divinity> okay guys SHUT UP
[21:27:57] <[Ind]brado> those are 3 ways to find out kellawTA
[21:28:15] <[Mod]Divinity> We are here to discuss a compromise
[21:28:21] <[Mod]Divinity> we need to decide on some BASIC guidelines
[21:28:22] <[Ind]brado> how can we compromise on a guideline that covers more things than we can possibly bring up here?
[21:28:24] <[CSB]Danne> Peoples also stopped respecting FW.. wich will be the next problem... first it is active hostiles.. now it begins with FWs.. soon it will be a big inferno with alot of bad things happening =) Once some KDs stop respecting each other more gets dragged into the deal.. a server wide alliance war would probally be needed to get our feelings out of our bodies to be able to start over... =) or we just keep on playing without honor as it seam to 
[21:28:33] <[Mod]Divinity> guys, I said SHUT THE FUCK UP
[21:28:41] * Reddy is now known as [LPL]Redwingsfan
[21:29:16] <[Mod]Divinity> These basic guidelines will be open to interpretation, but we need to at least agree on some basic things
[21:29:31] <[Mod]Divinity> 1. War is war.  If you hit into someone's war (real war), then it is an OOW hit.
[21:29:39] <[eX]DrAlex> Including declared war?
[21:29:42] <[Ind]brado> FW?
[21:29:45] <[Abs]Zoot> including post war cf?
[21:29:48] <[Mod]Divinity> real war, brado
[21:29:54] <[Mod]Divinity> post war CF is protected by the game, yes
[21:30:03] <[TA]Thalius> I have a comment about war
[21:30:05] <[Mod]Divinity> get a CE if you don't want to get raped
[21:30:19] <[Mod]Divinity> after war button is pressed, you cannot be waving to get into a war
[21:30:24] <[NoX]Timekeeper> FW isnt war
[21:30:28] <[Mod]Divinity> I realize that
[21:30:36] <[Mod]Divinity> I said real war...
[21:30:45] <[ReV]Antriarc> If you get a crystal eye then you see many hits on one kd its gotta be pretty explanatory that they are going to war or want to
[21:30:53] <[Ind]Striker073> ya I don't know that this respecting FW crap is
[21:30:56] <[Ind]Striker073> FW is open
[21:31:03] <[IND]KellawTA> ask mehul to put an extra link stating the kd is in hostile in the kd page
[21:31:03] <[Ind]brado> what if the kd is waiting to strike though ReV ???
[21:31:12] <[IND]KellawTA> this might solve the problem
[21:31:14] <[Mod]Divinity> going into a REAL war, being in a REAL war, and post REAL war...is all protected
[21:31:18] <[Mod]Divinity> that should be self explanatory
[21:31:21] <[Mod]Divinity> you do any of that and it is OOW
[21:31:27] <[Mod]Divinity> can you at least agree on that?
[21:31:28] <[Ind]brado> agreed
[21:31:28] <[Abs]Zoot> ok
[21:31:35] <[Abs]Zoot> providing that u are initiating attacks
[21:31:37] <[Abs]Zoot> not retalling
[21:31:45] <[Abs]Zoot> i agree that declared wars should be protected yeh
[21:31:49] <[Eclipse]skraz> yeah
[21:31:52] <[Eclipse]skraz> but if they hit out of it
[21:31:55] <[Eclipse]skraz> im retalling
[21:31:55] <[Lotus]Peppie> post real war is the 24 hr cf time? in that case, i agree every utopian should respect it
[21:32:02] <[CSB]Thingol> this is kinda stating the obvious
[21:32:11] <[NI]Beta> i agree that declared wars are protected as long as the party in the war did not initiate anything
[21:32:12] <[Mod]Divinity> yes, skraz
[21:32:15] <[Mod]Divinity> that is self explanatory
[21:32:18] <[Mod]Divinity> if they hit out of war you can retal it
[21:32:21] <[eX]DrAlex> we are agreeing on game mechanics it seems
[21:32:25] <[CSB]Thingol> yeah
[21:32:26] <[CSB]Danne> FW is just a way to try to show keep out... and when a kingdom dont keep out.. the mutal respect is lost.. and then that will fallow to the problem about active hostiles and such... it all builds vendettas so FW is not a war... but if u hit into a FW trubble starts =P 
[21:32:29] <[CSB]Thingol> which is not why we are here
[21:32:42] <[Mod]Divinity> FW's will not be respected all of the time
[21:32:43] <[Lotus]Peppie> its also self explanatory that hitting into wars etc is no biggie if being done during some alliance war
[21:33:00] <[Mod]Divinity> you cannot be declared on, but you can still be waved
[21:33:07] <[eX]DrAlex> well all rules dissapear in aliance war
[21:33:16] <[Eclipse]skraz> AW = FSU
[21:33:19] <[eX]DrAlex> But that's off topic ^^
[21:33:25] <[CSB]Thingol> quite lol
[21:33:29] <[Mod]Divinity> okay
[21:33:32] <[Mod]Divinity> so we have all agreed
[21:33:38] <[Mod]Divinity> no hitting into real wars
[21:33:38] <[Eclipse]skraz> on that at least
[21:33:44] <[Eclipse]skraz> but thats game mechanics
[21:33:45] <[Lotus]Peppie> well, those that havent fallen asleep yet have agreed :P
[21:33:46] <[ReV]Antriarc> agreed
[21:33:49] <[Abs]Zoot> was that ever a disagreement?
[21:33:50] <[Abs]Zoot> :p
[21:33:58] <[ReV]Antriarc> i dont think so
[21:34:01] <sasquatch> hehe
[21:34:04] <[Ind]Striker073> why would FWs be sacrosanct?
[21:34:06] <[Ind]brado> the problem is when hostiles have not degraded to war though
[21:34:18] <[Lotus]Peppie> brado, thats a problem and will stay a problem
[21:34:25] <[Eclipse]skraz> imho vulturing is causing to much pressure at top
[21:34:26] <[Ind]brado> ofc
[21:34:26] <[Lotus]Peppie> we've talked about this for 1.5 hrs, maybe its time to cork it
[21:34:43] <[Ind]brado> i agree, as much has been said on this topic as i think we can possibly say
[21:34:44] <[ReV]Antriarc> It depends on the set rules of the fake war set, you have to be sure of that before hand
[21:35:02] <[Ind]Striker073> huh?
[21:35:05] <[eX]DrAlex> From what I've seen: Everything is to be taken on a 1 to 1 basis when it comes to hostilities. Basically, nothing has been accomplished here. Was there any other topics to be brought up?
[21:35:05] <[NI]Beta> FW shouldn't be protected for any reason
[21:35:07] <[Mod]Divinity> okay
[21:35:10] <[Mod]Divinity> let's talk about hostiles :)
[21:35:16] <[Eclipse]skraz> we have divinity
[21:35:21] <[Abs]Zoot> the problem is usually when a kd/alliance does something shitty and claims it was fair, then has the same thing done back and feels wronged badly
[21:35:24] <[Abs]Zoot> thats what causes fights
[21:35:25] <[Mod]Divinity> no agreements yet, skraz
[21:35:26] <[NI]Beta> FW is merely to reduce losses should you be hit, it's like fortified + forts ultra. it's not a war of any degree
[21:35:30] <[SF]Tyreal> Noir wishes to speak:
[21:35:31] <[SF]Tyreal> <[SF]NOIR> if someone goes into hostile they should be doing it cause they want to war the other kd but thing is if the other kd don't want to war them they don't fight back but they tryin to say if u fight back u are wanting the war then it goes back to the top 200 who ave total control over if there provinces hti back or not anyone below that cannot say 100% they control every provinces actions
[21:35:45] <[Eclipse]skraz> feeding != hostile
[21:35:45] <[Ind]brado> thats the kd/alliances's own fault imo zoot
[21:35:46] <[Mod]Divinity> Guys, it is pretty simple...think of what you wouldn't want someone to do to your Kingdom
[21:35:53] <[Abs]Zoot> of coure it is brado
[21:35:55] <[Abs]Zoot> course
[21:35:56] <[Mod]Divinity> in order to have it not happen, you need to not do it
[21:35:58] <[Ind]brado> skraz > what is feeding though
[21:35:58] <[Eclipse]skraz> its the feeding wanting protection i want to clear up
[21:36:04] <[Eclipse]skraz> yeah
[21:36:06] <[Eclipse]skraz> thats the problem
[21:36:16] <[Lotus]Peppie> oi
[21:36:20] <[Mod]Divinity> when one Kingdom waves a Kingdom that just waved and still has armies out...and then bitches when it happens to them
[21:36:23] <[Lotus]Peppie> maybe we can move hostiles to the back of the queue
[21:36:25] <[Mod]Divinity> you have just broken the above rule
[21:36:25] <[Eclipse]skraz> i still think some time to retal should be respected
[21:36:26] <[eX]DrAlex> [Eclipse]skraz: 1 wave protected, 2nd wave has no protection?
[21:36:35] <[NI]Beta> feeding should be under 85% NW or out of dragon range or something
[21:36:40] <[Ind]brado> skraz
[21:36:42] <[Ind]brado> forget time
[21:36:44] <[Eclipse]skraz> you cant just wait for a kd to send army out, then wave em
[21:36:45] <[Lotus]Peppie> if at the end of this summit anyone still has the stamina to talk about hostiles, thats cool
[21:36:53] <[Ind]brado> just find out if they plan to retalliate before you involve yourself
[21:36:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> but for now, lets move on
[21:36:55] <[Lotus]Peppie> pretty please?
[21:36:58] <[ReV]Antriarc> dragon range sounds fair
[21:37:04] <[Mod]Divinity> okay
[21:37:07] <[NI]Beta> Who would war outside of dragon range anyway?
[21:37:09] <[Mod]Divinity> but first let's see if people agree
[21:37:09] <zapanap> what's the distinction between feeding and a hostile?
[21:37:14] <zapanap> <-- i would war outside of dragon range
[21:37:16] <[Mod]Divinity> out of dragon range = feeding
[21:37:19] <[Mod]Divinity> no hostile protection
[21:37:25] <[Mod]nosajr> hold on. I want to know if there are any other kind of issues other than hostiles/double declares
[21:37:25] <[NI]Beta> zapa -- declaring up or down? :)
[21:37:26] <[Mod]Divinity> (it isn't an active hostile)
[21:37:28] <zapanap> either
[21:37:29] <zapanap> and both
[21:37:32] <zapanap> i've done both ;p
[21:37:56] <[Mod]nosajr> any other issues besides the usual hostile/double declaring?
[21:38:00] <[Lotus]Peppie> there was stuff about feeding, raping ghettos, thinking about the future of utopia
[21:38:02] <[Lotus]Peppie> right?
[21:38:11] <[ReV]Antriarc> yeah all are topics
[21:38:15] <[Ind]brado> ok, if my kd is 80% of another kds NW, and they wave us > that means they are feeding on us by some ppls terms
[21:38:16] <[Lotus]Peppie> that was my impression from the AR.com post anyway
[21:38:22] <[Eclipse]skraz> yeah peppie, but i find it ironic thats coming out of your mouth when your kds 4 mill nw :P
[21:38:25] <[Ind]brado> what if my kd plans to take to war in 10 hours
[21:38:30] <zapanap> what if you hit them first brado?
[21:38:31] <brother_siput> lol
[21:38:35] <[Lotus]Peppie> shup skraz, thats circumstance and not the issue here
[21:38:36] <[Ind]brado> say we didnt
[21:38:41] <zapanap> is it still feeding, or is it waving in response to your hits?  or is that not protected?
[21:38:42] <[Mod]Divinity> zapanap, bring something to the table or be devoiced
[21:38:43] <[Ind]brado> i still think the waving kd should have protection
[21:38:44] <zapanap> what if you hit them 5x?  6x?  10x?
[21:38:50] <[NI]Beta> perhaps feeding should be defined as dragon range or 85% or something, should the other kingdom not retal
[21:38:50] <[Mod]Divinity> you are just trying to make so that nothing gets done
[21:38:52] <zapanap> i am bringing something to the table.
[21:38:55] <[NI]Beta> Which is what Stoffer mentioned earlier
[21:38:58] <zapanap> threatening me gets you nowhere.
[21:39:04] <[Eclipse]skraz> i have a real issue with ghetto bashing
[21:39:05] <[Abs]Zoot> zapanap has a very good point
[21:39:06] <[Mod]Divinity> I'm not threatening you :)
[21:39:08] <[eX]DrAlex> You guys keep bringing up rare situations
[21:39:09] <zapanap> You're just trying to force a consensus where one doesn't exist.
[21:39:18] <[ReV]Antriarc> If your trying to hit a kd outside of dragon range your not going to be making great gains..so why bother?
[21:39:21] <[Mod]nosajr> let's hold this discussion on hostile and double declaring till end of meeting and get the other issues discussed and worked out then come back. this is going to be a long one and I would like to make the best use of time
[21:39:23] <[Abs]Zoot> defining what is and isnt feeding just gives ppl a way to pass one off as the other
[21:39:29] <[Mod]Divinity> yes, nosaj is right
[21:39:29] <[Abs]Zoot> and know they can back it up with a premade agreement
[21:39:32] <[Mod]Divinity> we won't get it done :)
[21:39:36] <[Lotus]Peppie> seconding nosaj
[21:39:36] <[Ind]brado> we should come back to this
[21:39:39] <[Abs]Zoot> it doesnt actualyl solve anything
[21:39:50] <[Mod]Divinity> alright
[21:39:58] <[Mod]Divinity> let's move on to another hot topic ;p
[21:40:02] <[Mod]Divinity> powerplaying
[21:40:02] <[CSB]Thingol> yes pls
[21:40:06] <[Mod]Divinity> I know some people wanted to talk about it
[21:40:10] <[CSB]Thingol> well, not that topic lol
[21:40:12] <[EnD]Cloudfour> can we do 1 by 1?
[21:40:18] <[NI]Beta> so last topic we agree to disagree?
[21:40:27] <[Mod]nosajr> no, last topic is on hold
[21:40:39] <[Mod]nosajr> powerplaying - what is it?
[21:40:45] <[Lotus]Peppie> oh god
[21:40:45] <[EnD]Cloudfour> i tot 1 topic shud be debate for only 15-20mins
[21:40:48] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> let's do it 1 by 1
[21:40:48] <[Mod]nosajr> ;p
[21:40:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> is it still free for all?
[21:40:54] <[EnD]Cloudfour> 1 by 1 plz
[21:40:59] <[Mod]nosajr> no...
[21:41:04] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> ok
[21:41:05] <[Ind]brado> organized tactics by more than 1 kingdom to succeed = powerplaying
[21:41:07] <zapanap> There are two types of powerplaying.  Alliance powerplaying, and kingdom powerplaying.
[21:41:07] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> than 500 by 500
[21:41:07] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> ;)
[21:41:13] <[ReV]Antriarc> 1 by 1 would just take way to long
[21:41:20] <zapanap> Kingdom powerplaying = 1v1.  Alliance powerplaying = using an alliance to take down a kingdom
[21:41:29] * []yf is now known as Film
[21:41:31] <[Ind]brado> can we devoice and do this like last time?
[21:41:34] <[NI]Beta> alliance powerplaying could be 1 alliance on another
[21:41:39] <[NI]Beta> not just alliance on a kingdom
[21:41:41] <[Ind]brado> before we have a debate
[21:41:50] <[Mod]Divinity> I'd rather not voice everyone again
[21:41:54] <[ReV]Antriarc> i mean it could be if you have like BoD against eX :P
[21:41:55] <[Ind]brado> ok
[21:41:58] <[Mod]Divinity> how about everyone shuts up
[21:42:00] <[Eclipse]skraz> powerplaying is merely using pwoer to get what you want
[21:42:00] <[Mod]Divinity> and we do it one at a time
[21:42:02] <[Mod]Divinity> but quickly
[21:42:03] <[Mod]a_arcane> If you have any issues with anything or need help with something come to #access and wait for help
[21:42:11] <[Mod]nosajr> no we're defining powerplaying right now. no huge essays. I don't want to be grading papers.
[21:42:11] <[Mod]Divinity> pm me ONLY if you have something pre-typed
[21:42:28] <[Mod]Divinity> lol
[21:42:31] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> lol
[21:42:36] <[Mod]Divinity> o.O
[21:42:39] <[CSB]Thingol> hey TBH talks! :D
[21:42:40] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> powerplaying is mostly by alliances
[21:42:47] <[Lotus]Peppie> i have something pretyped but it'll get my ass disconnected
[21:42:50] <[Mod]Divinity> let's just say alliance powerplaying
[21:42:50] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> :)
[21:42:53] <[Mod]nosajr> ok so as part of an alliance, what do you think is powerplaying?
[21:43:06] <[Eclipse]skraz> using power
[21:43:07] <[Eclipse]skraz> to get what you want
[21:43:08] <[Ind]brado> anything thats organized to eliminate threats
[21:43:09] <[Eclipse]skraz> its that simple
[21:43:11] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> when an aggressive alliances uses more than one kd to get invovled in a fair 1vs1
[21:43:19] <[Abs]Chai> in my experience in Utopia, "powerplaying" is defined as "doing anything my target doesn't like"
[21:43:37] <[Ind]brado> example?
[21:43:39] <[Eclipse]skraz> <[RAR]Firn> using resources you have avilable to defend those same resources and acquire more of those resources
[21:43:40] <[Mod]Divinity> Chai, thanks for that sarcastic remark ;p
[21:43:40] <[Eclipse]skraz> <[RAR]Firn> THATS powerplaying
[21:43:40] <[Eclipse]skraz> <[RAR]Firn> please post that for me
[21:43:40] * [Eclipse]skraz was kicked by bender.us.utonet.org (Flooding (Limit is 3 lines per 2 seconds))
[21:43:44] <[Abs]Chai> bottomfeeding is powerplaying.  waving low is powerplaying.  topfeeding is powerplaying.  demanding hits to cf is powerplaying.  "powerplaying" is a worthless term.
[21:43:45] <[Mod]nosajr> Chai, semantics. quit abusing 90% of the others with your vernacular ;p
[21:43:46] <[Abs]Chai> No, I'm serious.
[21:43:51] <[Abs]Chai> That's not sarcasm.
[21:43:55] <[ReV]Antriarc> that could be on such a huge level...you can have huge kd on small kd...or large number of kds on 1 kd or huge alliance against small alliance
[21:44:03] <[Ind]Striker073> powerplaying is a useless term
[21:44:04] <[Ind]brado> we all know that those arent examples of powerplaying though chai
[21:44:05] <[Abs]Chai> I feel "powerplaying" is a worthless term, that is 98% of the time used to describe pejoratively an action a kigndom took.
[21:44:12] <zapanap> chai is right ;p
[21:44:17] <[Ind]brado> Ranges on Gen = powerplaying
[21:44:19] <[Lotus]Peppie> i do agree there
[21:44:22] <[Ind]brado> i dont see that on wol
[21:44:24] <[Ind]Striker073> it's what everyone labels when larger alliances do anything against smaller alliances
[21:44:27] <[Ind]brado> and dont see how its an issue
[21:44:32] <[Ind]Striker073> or alliances do things against independant kingdoms
[21:44:37] <[Lotus]Peppie> everyone has his own definition on "honorable play" and "powerplaying"
[21:44:38] <[Ind]Striker073> it's all labelled powerplaying
[21:44:59] <[ReV]Antriarc> Im from smaller alliance and i can agree that sometimes we as smaller alliance can get mouth and step out of line:::then we deserve to be put back into place
[21:45:04] <[LPL]Redwingsfan> powerplayign is simple.. using your size to your advantage.. honorbaly or not is everyones opinion
[21:45:10] <[Abs]Chai> Real, ACTUAL powerplaying is the centralized action of many kingdoms on a few or one, on a Xv1 level, where X is any number 2 or greater.  On WoL, it basically never happens, because any -real- powerplaying would result in someone getting gangbanged.
[21:45:27] <[Ind]brado> it does so happen
[21:45:28] <[Mod]nosajr> ok in that case, then how would you guys compromise on powerplaying? would an alliance gb on a single KD be considered powerplaying? or just ops? or multiple KDs hitting a single kd?
[21:45:29] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> abs chai
[21:45:31] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> I suggest each 5 mins we have a mute session in which moderators put what has been said in few lines and what has been decided
[21:45:31] <[Ind]brado> just not often
[21:45:31] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> i like that answer
[21:45:33] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> I suggest each 5 mins we have a mute session in which moderators put what has been said in few lines and what has been decided
[21:45:45] <[Abs]Chai> Everything else - bottomfeeding, topfeeding, waving, re-waving, waving into fake wars, waving into cf'd hostiles, waving when someone else can't/won't retal, that's not "powerplaying."  That's using your strategic position to the maximum gain of your kingdom.
[21:45:49] <[Abs]Zoot> the strong use their strength to take advantage of a weak = powerplaying
[21:45:51] <[Abs]Chai> Unfortunately, no one ever LIKES that.
[21:45:53] <[Abs]Chai> So people bitch.
[21:45:57] <[Abs]Chai> Hence, the term "powerplaying."
[21:45:58] <[Abs]Zoot> and its all good as long as the strong dont outnumber the weak
[21:46:02] <[Mod]Divinity> okay stop the debating
[21:46:11] <[Mod]Divinity> we will start with the smaller alliances saying what they would like to change
[21:46:17] <[Mod]Divinity> then we can see what the bigger alliances think
[21:46:43] <[Mod]Divinity> IceChain
[21:46:44] <[Mod]Divinity> go ahead
[21:46:57] <[Mod]Divinity> :)
[21:46:58] <[SoF]IceChain> Ahh
[21:47:00] <[SoF]IceChain> thank you
[21:47:31] <[SoF]IceChain> I'm from a smaller alliance, and one thing I would like to see changed
[21:47:42] <[SoF]IceChain> is diplomatic relations between smaller and bigger alliances
[21:47:52] <[SoF]IceChain> I agree that oftentimes, smaller alliances get mouthy
[21:47:54] <[SoF]IceChain> and think they're bad
[21:47:58] <[SoF]IceChain> and then get owned
[21:48:10] <[Mod]nosajr> so how would you change it?
[21:48:24] <[NoX]Timekeeper> why change it? :)
[21:48:26] <[SoF]IceChain> I'm not sure it's possible, to be honest.
[21:48:31] <[LPL]Redwingsfan> is this in relation to SoF and BSH incident?
[21:48:33] <[SoF]IceChain> It all depends on the leadership
[21:48:39] <Titan> i have something to say can i just past it here?
[21:48:40] <[SoF]IceChain> and no Reddy, it's not
[21:48:42] <[Mod]Divinity> okay guys, I don't think I've said directly what we are trying to accomplish here
[21:48:52] <[Mod]Divinity> the smaller alliances represent the newer utopians (not always, but generally)
[21:49:14] <[Mod]Divinity> and one of the purposes of this summit is to discuss how we can make utopia more friendly to the newer player
[21:49:18] <[SoF]IceChain> *raises his hand* 7 IRL years a Utopian :)
[21:49:25] <Titan> a) Each to his own. You aren't going to come up with a common ground for what constitutes a hostile. And each situation is unique. People will do what they think they can get away with nomatter what is said or decided here. It doesn't matter if your kdname is Brute Force, godsarmy or Equilibrium. You have to work for your reputation, and then do what you can with it. Its part of the game.
[21:49:25] <Titan> b) This is a game where the goal for the serious gamer is to get to the top of whichever chart you wish. Haveing a goal does not mean you are not haveing fun btw. The basic goal of any game is to have fun.
[21:49:25] <Titan> c) I personally want anyone in an alliance with me to be protected from all waves. If you have to wave us it should be when we are war ready, when we have our all elite dwarf avian or halflings at home and when we have stockpiled enough runes and food for decay to make it go 0 each hour.
[21:49:26] <Titan> d) Its impossible to pay attention to whats said in here to much joining parting and uhm spam.
[21:49:27] <[Mod]Divinity> we are losing the older players, and then scaring away the newer players
[21:49:32] <[AoD]Frost> One question; Are we referring to small as KD #, or small as average NW, or both?  Because Zauper's is small in one way and gigantic in another.
[21:49:44] <[SoF]IceChain> I think a combination
[21:49:49] <brother_siput> ok here is a suggestion from me
[21:49:51] <[ReV]Antriarc> Hence what i said earlier...i have 9 kds..dont like a bigger alliance coming down on me for a kd misunderstanding. but if someone is in UT bashing a larger alliance or anywhere for that matter then they deserve to be smacked a bit.
[21:49:51] <brother_siput> a simple one
[21:49:56] <[SoF]IceChain> a few SKs is small in one respect, large in another
[21:50:02] <brother_siput> since we are discussin 2 complex stuff here
[21:50:07] <[Mod]Divinity> lol
[21:50:12] <[Mod]Divinity> I think we know what I mean as small
[21:50:14] <brother_siput> a kd shld be allowed 2 tag WAR when war is declared
[21:50:20] <brother_siput> and when it does
[21:50:21] <[NI]Duck> if you are talking about the newer player alliances, i guess small in average nw
[21:50:23] <[Mod]Divinity> large = the "elite" alliances
[21:50:26] <brother_siput> no hitting into it
[21:50:32] <brother_siput> can we agree to that ?
[21:50:40] <[SoF]IceChain> I think we've moved from that sippy
[21:50:42] <zapanap> people will abuse it, so no
[21:50:43] <[ReV]Antriarc> yeah that is pretty standard
[21:50:44] <[SoF]IceChain> no offense
[21:50:55] <brother_siput> sorry [SoF]IceChain
[21:51:00] <brother_siput> 2 many chats at one time
[21:51:02] <[SoF]IceChain> heh
[21:51:04] <brother_siput> hard 2 keep track
[21:51:08] <[SoF]IceChain> yeah
[21:51:15] <[Mod]Divinity> guys, stfu ;p
[21:51:31] <[EnD]Cloudfour> what this summit is for, making the small guys act to the wishes of the big?as history told,big boys always own the small one coz they think they rule the server
[21:51:32] <[Mod]Divinity> I am asking you to bring up ideas that will help us keep the newer players
[21:51:40] <[LPL]Redwingsfan> i am sorry to butt out so early but i must be going to work :(
[21:51:50] <[CSB]Thingol> well, thats easy actually...
[21:51:55] <[CSB]Thingol> simply bring back wol/bf :)
[21:51:59] <[Eclipse]skraz> [EnD]Cloudfour> what this summit is for, making the small guys act to the wishes of the big?as history told,big boys always own the small one coz they think they rule the server
[21:52:00] <[Eclipse]skraz> actually
[21:52:02] <[CSB]Thingol> but thats, once again, game mechanics
[21:52:03] <[Mod]Divinity> Thingol...things that we as members can do
[21:52:03] <[EnD]Cloudfour> what icechain telling is correct.the benefits for the small ones llike us
[21:52:04] <[LPL]Redwingsfan> althoguh really LPL had no issues to bring up, just wishing to watch the debate and help bring points to the table. 
[21:52:05] <sasquatch> heaven
[21:52:06] <[Eclipse]skraz> its for acompromise
[21:52:12] <[SoF]IceChain> Yeah
[21:52:14] <[SoF]IceChain> it has to be
[21:52:15] <[ReV]Antriarc> im 5 year player in rev...we are not great but i try to help the newer players, teach them and things of that nature.
[21:52:23] <[OA]h[OA]gie> imo, wol/bf cause more new players to quit
[21:52:28] <[OA]h[OA]gie> at least in its last few ages
[21:52:39] <[OA]h[OA]gie> any noob that got on bf got ripped to shreds
[21:52:44] <[OA]h[OA]gie> due to the lack of targets
[21:52:45] <[SoF]IceChain> I didn't :P
[21:52:45] <[SF]NOIR> the only way you are going to keep the newer player is if you leave them alone an teach them how to play but to many older players find them good targets for gains
[21:52:59] <[Lotus]Peppie> i have some general points prepared on this
[21:53:08] <[SoF]IceChain> Unfortunately, as alliances, when we get new players, we should give them that crash course
[21:53:08] <[LPL]Redwingsfan> Also, if someone could give Sharpe +v in my place. He is a fellow LPL monarch
[21:53:08] <[ReV]Antriarc> too true... low dpa looks good :D
[21:53:14] <[Lotus]Peppie> but its going to be useless to paste/post unless the spam stops
[21:53:19] <[SoF]IceChain> So that they learn quickly
[21:53:23] <[SoF]IceChain> and find the game more enjoyable
[21:53:28] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> well
[21:53:30] <[Mod]nosajr> peppie go ahead, but no huge essays. do it in SMALL parts.
[21:53:38] <[Mod]Devil> RWF .. you can speak for him.
[21:53:48] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> atm we have at least 3 speeches being held
[21:53:50] <[Lotus]Peppie> meh
[21:53:51] <[LPL]Redwingsfan> Devil, im leaving atm
[21:53:52] <[Mod]Devil> We cannot grant +v to anyone, as then we would have 514 voices
[21:53:54] <[LPL]Redwingsfan> he is going to speak for me :)
[21:53:57] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> somebody make something
[21:54:03] <[ReV]Antriarc> How about we as players create a guide to post for new player..mehul sucks... so make it in lamens terms for them.
[21:54:14] <[Abs]Chai> Here, I'll do it for you.
[21:54:16] <[Lotus]Peppie> ill see if i can shorten it
[21:54:21] <[OA]h[OA]gie> there are hundreds of thsoe antriarc
[21:54:24] <[Abs]Chai> "If you have acres that can be taken without a chance of retaliation, someone better than you will take them off you."
[21:54:29] <[SF]NOIR> look what  all of us did to B/F we scared everyone away from that server an the game now we come to Wol the same thing is going to happen if we keep with what we did on B/F
[21:54:31] <[Eclipse]skraz> ok
[21:54:32] <[Mod]Devil> You got three reps , RWF. They will be the one speaking. And only those.
[21:54:33] <[Eclipse]skraz> just a point
[21:54:37] <[ReV]Antriarc> hehe i dont have one for my alliance so direct me in pm to them :p
[21:54:39] <[OA]h[OA]gie> newbie guides are all over the place
[21:54:45] <[Eclipse]skraz> noir said new players make good targets?
[21:54:46] <[Eclipse]skraz> to who
[21:54:52] <[Eclipse]skraz> not to us that you seem to blame it on
[21:54:54] <[LPL]Redwingsfan> Err Devil, i am the only rep for LPL 
[21:54:55] <[Eclipse]skraz> they arent big enough
[21:54:59] <[Eclipse]skraz> to gain off
[21:55:00] <[SoF]IceChain> [OA]h[OA]gie: Guides are easier written than followed
[21:55:04] <[Eclipse]skraz> and thier nwpa is to low
[21:55:06] <[Eclipse]skraz> with nw gains
[21:55:19] <[Mod]Devil> pm RWF
[21:55:23] <[SF]NOIR> i blaming it on all of utopia it is not jsut one person
[21:55:31] <[Eclipse]skraz> blame it on people thier size
[21:55:34] <[Eclipse]skraz> aka the smaller guys
[21:56:03] <[Mod]Divinity> okay...so far I haven't really seen any ideas besides writing guides for the newbies
[21:56:07] <[Lotus]Peppie> can i paste my bit to a mod first?
[21:56:13] <[SF]NOIR> alot of good kd's are lding alot just to take on the noobs these days
[21:56:16] <[Lotus]Peppie> before spamming the channel...
[21:56:23] <[Eclipse]skraz> noir
[21:56:27] <[Eclipse]skraz> jonneyessen
[21:56:29] <[Eclipse]skraz> is NOT a good kd
[21:56:33] <[Eclipse]skraz> and i spit on his ghetto
[21:56:38] <[Lotus]Peppie> skraz, nicely on topic
[21:56:41] <[eX]DrAlex> This isn't the place
[21:56:42] <[Mod]trooneh> skraz
[21:56:44] <[AoD]Frost> Antriarc; Just to interject, I know for a fact ReV has some guides.  Ingwe posted one and I posted some other stuff.  Anyhow, can we please allow the Mods to re-post what this topic even is?
[21:56:44] <[eX]DrAlex> For that skrax
[21:56:48] <[Mod]trooneh> Don't attack single KDs right now
[21:56:49] <[Mod]trooneh> please
[21:56:50] <[Mod]nosajr> skraz, that's not constructive or going to be tolerated. please don't do that
[21:56:53] <[CSB]Thingol> are we gonna flame?
[21:56:58] <[Eclipse]skraz> sorry
[21:57:00] <[Eclipse]skraz> i just dont like
[21:57:00] <[Mod]nosajr> no flaming
[21:57:02] <[CSB]Thingol> cause if so, please let me know
[21:57:02] <[Eclipse]skraz> being grouped
[21:57:04] <[Eclipse]skraz> with people who do that
[21:57:12] <[UA]GryFalcon> (Utopia is much more war oriented now than when the population of the game was growing. Now that war is so damaging and so all encompassing, we see the population of the game dropping... coincidence? ; )
[21:57:18] <[Eclipse]skraz> ill never land drop
[21:57:22] <[Eclipse]skraz> to war easy targets
[21:57:38] <[SF]NOIR> but alot of kds do
[21:57:50] <sasquatch> some pay as well
[21:57:55] <[TA]Thalius> one point of note is Utopia gets smaller every day and I bet not a person here thinks it could be because of their policies
[21:57:56] <[NoX]Timekeeper> gryFalcon, so lets just all whore and explore, and we can have 1000 islands in utopia
[21:58:02] <[NoX]Timekeeper> and 10000000a in explore pool
[21:58:21] <sasquatch> i think its because of our policies :)
[21:58:23] <[UA]GryFalcon> (: is that how age 15 was? I don't seem to recall it as such... 
[21:58:33] <[NI]Beta> TK sometimes i wonder why mehul removed Dice in FW, it was so much simpler with that
[21:58:46] <[Abs]Zoot> he whould remove offence too
[21:58:50] <[Abs]Zoot> should*
[21:58:50] <[Mod]Divinity> alright, so land dropping is a problem
[21:58:53] <[AoD]Frost> As far as Utopia population is concerned, I have said since last age (UT Posts are still up there) that the attitude of "Noobs shouldn't play" can and is killing this game.  We need noobs and at some points we need to be, yanno, nice to them.
[21:58:54] <[Lotus]Peppie> off topic!
[21:58:58] <[Mod]Divinity> we can't stop the Kingdoms, all we can do is condemn them for doing it
[21:59:04] <[UA]GryFalcon> I just think there needs to be a balance.. right now we're at a fairly high extreme in terms of the importance of war.
[21:59:07] <[CSB]Thingol> landdroppping is utterly gay but still an option and a strategy to some kds
[21:59:23] <[ReV]Antriarc> Exactly frost....
[21:59:25] <[Ind]brado> land dropping is just a tactic, similar to honor whoring, sci pumps/elite pumps
[21:59:30] <[CSB]Thingol> its, once again, part of the game mechanic
[21:59:30] <[CSB]Thingol> s
[21:59:38] <[CSB]Thingol> yes, indeed brado
[21:59:44] <[Mod]Divinity> I remember a couple times when the landdropping Kingdoms that have honor got their top honor prov razed
[21:59:46] <[Abs]Chai> Well, you know what separates "fake wars" from "landdropping" or even consentual farming?
[21:59:50] <[Eclipse]skraz> its a tactic that causes you to war kds not at your own ability
[21:59:55] <[Eclipse]skraz> and thus pushes people out of the game
[21:59:58] <[Eclipse]skraz> cause you farm them
[21:59:58] <[Mod]Divinity> perhaps that being done a couple times would...reinforce it :P
[22:00:00] <[Abs]Chai> The fact the former is approved of, the second is sketchy, the third is not approved of.
[22:00:01] <[Abs]Chai> That's it.
[22:00:14] <[Ind]brado> your right
[22:00:15] <[Abs]Chai> That's how society mores work.
[22:00:18] <[CSB]Danne> Peoples use land dropping in diffrent ways.. some land drop to stay small all the time... some land drop to keep the KD more even.. some KDs gets outside hits to do it so it isent that noticed... it will be around even if its nto a nice thing to do most of the times... 
[22:00:19] <[Abs]Chai> Societal mores, rather.
[22:00:40] <[Abs]Chai> If a kingdom landdrops, that's fine, and their choice.  They shouldn't bitch when a larger kingdom razes the shit out of them, though.
[22:00:48] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> ok guys, id jsut like to say that most of us here at some point in time, was a noob. lol
[22:00:49] <[Abs]Chai> Of course, if that happened, it'd be "powerplaying."
[22:00:51] <[CSB]Thingol> yes Danne, hence its a strategy, just like some people pump science/acres/wizzards in a fake war, etc
[22:00:56] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> there may be some exceptions
[22:00:57] <[Ind]brado> thats not powerplaying
[22:00:59] <[Ind]brado> its feeding
[22:01:00] <[TBH]Lord_Diablo> but most were
[22:01:05] <[SF]NOIR> simple fact is guides wont do anything cause no one will want to read all that u have to just to play this game, we are losing players to better games like wow guild wars an the such cause this game is so complicated to play an you just get hit to hell when u first start an get no where
[22:01:14] <[Ind]brado> if you want to compare it to what we said earlier
[22:01:35] <[Mod]Divinity> well if the utopian community really wants to condemn land dropping...then all you need to do is raze a couple provinces that have done it
[22:01:46] <[TA]Thalius> agreed the game would be bigger if all fed on people of their own ability and left the rest alone, if kds wanted a challenge not just to nw whore on noobs
[22:01:46] <[CSB]Thingol> heh, why condemn it?
[22:01:48] <[OA]h[OA]gie> find the kds who land drop
[22:01:55] <[OA]h[OA]gie> then raze off their biggest provs
[22:01:55] <[NI]Beta> How do you stop land dropping though
[22:01:56] <[CSB]Thingol> its a strategy
[22:02:00] <[OA]h[OA]gie> then see if they land drop again
[22:02:07] <[Ind]brado> why bother to stop it?
[22:02:11] <[NI]Beta> We gonna have a utopia coalition against them? i mean seriously all these words are great but what is anyone gonna do about it?
[22:02:11] <[Abs]Chai> Simple.
[22:02:13] <[Eclipse]skraz> "not just to nw whore on noobs"
[22:02:17] <[Abs]Chai> If you have someone raze them, they stop.
[22:02:19] <[Eclipse]skraz> i have problems with that statement
[22:02:24] <zapanap> land-dropping is functionally the same thing as pumping
[22:02:26] <[Abs]Chai> If you don't care enough about someone stopping to raze them, then you don't care enough.
[22:02:28] <[SF]NOIR> easy go for the kd's who have high honour high nwpa an low acre's
[22:02:36] <[Abs]Chai> Right.
[22:02:46] <[Abs]Chai> If you REALLY object to landdropping so much, there's a way in-game you can express your disdain.
[22:02:51] <[Abs]Chai> It's called the "prepare military" button.
[22:02:52] <[NI]Beta> I have been in kingdoms that are high in honor and don't land drop
[22:02:53] <[Eclipse]skraz> raze them
[22:02:57] <[eX]Manny> lol
[22:03:03] <[eX]Manny> you cant stop land dropping
[22:03:04] <[Ind]brado> i dont see the problem w/ land dropping, nor why we are discussing it
[22:03:06] <[NI]Beta> I don't see why there is a need unless you are trying to war the bottom of the barrel noobs
[22:03:12] <[Abs]Chai> And if kingdoms who landdrop catch razes, they usually learn they went too far.
[22:03:13] <[CSB]Thingol> i agree with brado
[22:03:25] <[ReV]Antriarc> Instead of hitting that target next time you see low NPA...why not stop and send a message..i dont knwo if your new or not...but here are some tips:?? would that be too hard for someone to do??
[22:03:25] * [Mod]Matty is now known as [Mod]Matty|Work
[22:03:33] <[CSB]Thingol> like i said before, its a strategy (lame one no doubt, but still a strategy)
[22:03:39] <[Mod]Divinity> land dropping is a problem because it drops you under your skill level
[22:03:52] <[NI]Beta> if land dropping kingdoms get razed then they are happy :P this is silly
[22:03:53] <[CSB]Thingol> hence its utterly boring
[22:03:58] <[Mod]Divinity> the good Kingdoms who are active and have been playing for a long time land drop to fight the newer Kingdoms who are ghettoes
[22:03:58] <[CSB]Thingol> but still that kds own choice
[22:04:10] <[Eclipse]skraz> fighting noob kds full of mostly either noobs or new players - your doing the game no favors by letting the new players first experiance being farmed
[22:04:11] <[Mod]Divinity> Beta they aren't happy if the province is killed off :)
[22:04:12] <[eX]DrAlex> Some of the 'warring" alliances have a lot of kds that do that
[22:04:12] <[CSB]Thingol> and that way they show skill?
[22:04:13] <[CSB]Thingol> bs
[22:04:21] <[eX]DrAlex> And its really up to them
[22:04:27] <[eX]DrAlex> though it sucks you can trap noobs in war
[22:04:27] <[TA]Thalius> a wrestler weight drops in hopes he will join a weight categorey he is too good for, just as in a land drop
[22:04:28] <[Mod]Divinity> yes it is their choice, and they can meet the consequencies
[22:04:36] <[NI]Beta> you're right, but what alliance will sit and watch its kingdom get players killed off because they are land dropping?
[22:04:45] <[Mod]Divinity> that is up to the alliances to decide
[22:04:46] <[Ind]Striker073> what does landdropping what to do with anything?
[22:04:53] <[Mod]Divinity> if that is something that we want to do to stop newbies from leaving
[22:04:53] <[CSB]Thingol> consequences from who?
[22:04:54] <Cessna> i agree with Striker
[22:04:57] <[Mod]Divinity> then we agree on it and do it
[22:05:00] <[eX]DrAlex> What is being discussed right now?
[22:05:05] <Cessna> land dropping isnt why everyone is here is it?
[22:05:05] <[Ind]brado> stupidness
[22:05:17] <[AoD]Frost> I can log on right now and find a KD at war with a KD 1/3rd its size.  I will not specify which.  How can this possibly be explained as a fair fight?
[22:05:17] <[NI]Beta> striker -- we're evidently discussing how to keep newer players in utopia and land dropping causes high skill to fight the low skill which chases newbies from the game
[22:05:23] <[TA]Thalius> the big fantasy is all one to one wars are fair, let he who belives that challenge Mike Tyson to a fair 1 to 1 fight
[22:05:25] <[Lotus]Peppie> i fear the staying on topic principle has been mortally wounded :(
[22:05:30] <[Mod]Divinity> we are discussing why Utopia is losing players
[22:05:33] <[Mod]Divinity> and how we can fix that
[22:05:38] <[Ind]brado> we cant
[22:05:40] <Cessna> "we" cant
[22:05:41] <[Ind]brado> we can help
[22:05:42] <[Lotus]Peppie> [Mod]Divinity, i have a piece on that
[22:05:42] <[CSB]Thingol> indeed we cant
[22:05:48] <[CSB]Thingol> sadly enough
[22:05:49] <[Ind]Striker073> eh
[22:05:49] <[Lotus]Peppie> its currently being reviewed by nosajr
[22:05:54] <[Mod]Divinity> kk
[22:05:55] <[ReV]Antriarc> Right frost, that is too easy of a war win...and some kds do this purposly. War wins.
[22:05:56] <[Ind]brado> only mehul can help
[22:05:57] * [OA]h[OA]gie sighs
[22:06:00] <[Lotus]Peppie> maybe it can help to get the discussion going
[22:06:07] <[OA]h[OA]gie> utopia used to be one of the few web games
[22:06:08] <[Lotus]Peppie> (provided people have the courtesy to shup)
[22:06:08] <[Ind]Striker073> I wasn't aware landdropping was a seirous issue?
[22:06:11] <[OA]h[OA]gie> so it was popular
[22:06:13] <[NI]Beta> ah i was just presented an idea
[22:06:15] <[Ind]Striker073> how many kingdoms actually landdrop?
[22:06:18] <[OA]h[OA]gie> now there are a bajillion web games
[22:06:20] <[NI]Beta> On the topic of making utopia more friendly to noobs and old players...(suggested by Philopoemen)
[22:06:21] <[NI]Beta> I think one of the thing for noobs can be "offline meetings". Meetings where any1 can get advices and stuff like that. Make some regional meetings, and maybe announce it through messages from Swirve, or at least on Utopia Temple.
[22:06:22] <[OA]h[OA]gie> why play utopia?
[22:06:23] <[NI]Beta> That should clearly make it more attractive to people. Extra reasons to play Utopia: you get the chance to hang out with "comrades" and drink a beer or two...
[22:06:24] <[Ind]Striker073> I'm not aware that many do
[22:06:25] <[NI]Beta> Most administrators of online-communities like games & forums organize offlines, as that's extra advertising and improvement... let's admit it, a good part of utopia players are geeks that don't have much friends in real life, so utopia might be a chance for them to meet new people...
[22:06:25] <[Ind]brado> it had detremental effects on new players striker
[22:06:37] <[Ind]Striker073> I can't see how it's a large problem
[22:06:41] <[ReV]Antriarc> and the main topic is losing our players to other web games
[22:06:42] <[Ind]Striker073> the only kds that landdrop are honor farming ones
[22:06:43] <[TA]Thalius> as long as bottom feeding is lucrative it will be done and any kd who gets bottomefed too much quits, the people go to guild wars or WoW
[22:06:47] <[NI]Beta> i, for one, would like getting beer from noobs and that would keep me here longer
[22:06:53] <[Ind]Striker073> and those are few because many people will raze them
[22:07:00] <[Ind]brado> striker, the ghettos that those top honor kds farm
[22:07:05] <Cessna> people who get bottomfed on who quit arent loyal to the game anyways
[22:07:10] <[Ind]Striker073> you quit the game when you lose a war?
[22:07:11] <[Ind]brado> are either ruined, causing ppl to quit
[22:07:18] <[Ind]Striker073> I never had that mentality when I started
[22:07:20] <Cessna> those that get bottomfed on who ARE loyal just join top KD's
[22:07:33] <[AoD]Frost> Cessna; that point is valid, but that attitude is how the game winds up having the plug pulled.
[22:07:38] <[Ind]brado> that could also be a factor striker
[22:07:41] <[TA]Thalius> yes so now you take an oath of loyalty to Utopia, yeah, right
[22:08:03] <[ReV]Antriarc> not enough support...does anyone really want utopia gone :P
[22:08:17] <[NI]Beta> We should just have a pool for active people
[22:08:26] <Cessna> no my point was that the topic to begin with is rediculous, people are going to quit, there is nothing anyone can do about it....
[22:08:29] <[NI]Beta> anyone who wants to be an active utopia player should sign up and be slotted into a kingdom
[22:08:33] <[AoD]Frost> The main fact is this;  It isn't an alliance's job to make the new players feel welcome.  We can do it!  But its not our job.  Instead, its the kingdom's job.
[22:08:35] <[Ind]brado> id just like the community to be more friendly
[22:08:39] <[NI]Beta> and just trade allll of the kingdoms and then we have a good base and dont have as many problems
[22:08:44] <[TA]Thalius> the game is dying and if the players don't fix it it won't be fixed, Mehul has plenty on his plate without Utopia and new games open every day on the web
[22:08:44] <[Ind]brado> i think thats a lacking factor compared to the old days
[22:09:03] <[Ind]brado> take utopia talk for example
[22:09:10] <[EnD]Cloudfour> its not even a compromise.its biggies powerplaying on smaller ones
[22:09:11] <[Ind]brado> that used to be a thriving community
[22:09:12] <[NI]Duck> Our ways can often scare away the newer players
[22:09:14] <[Ind]brado> now its quite dead
[22:09:14] <[ReV]Antriarc> to be honest an alliance causes more work for the newer players and they turn away from the game for that reason to sometimes
[22:09:21] <[TA]Thalius> I wonder what the game will be like when only sk's are here
[22:09:32] <[PW]halfer> wild
[22:09:40] <[PW]halfer> but that wont happen
[22:09:44] <[eX]DrAlex> Putting the servers together made things less fun for noobs
[22:09:45] <[PW]halfer> To many noobs
[22:09:48] <zapanap> what's biggies powerplaying on the smaller ones, cloudfour?
[22:09:53] <[ReV]Antriarc> yeah it did
[22:09:53] <[eX]DrAlex> having 2 different servers worked just fine
[22:09:53] <[Mod]Divinity> Frost
[22:09:57] <[Mod]Divinity> alliances are full of Kingdoms
[22:09:59] <[TA]Thalius> when they get rifd of all of the "noobs" will they still want to play?
[22:10:02] <[Ind]Striker073> nah dralex
[22:10:02] <[Mod]trooneh> Yeah, the merger dropped users like 10k
[22:10:02] <[Mod]Divinity> it is up to the alliances to have their Kingdoms do it
[22:10:05] <[Ind]Striker073> bf was dying
[22:10:07] <[Ind]Striker073> fast
[22:10:08] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> i like super kingdoms,that are the reasons why there is AR and daily news and challeneges
[22:10:20] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> challeneges*
[22:10:20] <[NI]Beta> for those of you who still aren't convinced about the regional meetings idea think about this -- people in smaller alliances could beat the crap out of people in larger alliances if they wanted to. it would be their only chance to do so
[22:10:25] <[Ind]Striker073> because no one wanted a challenge and so they moved to wol
[22:10:38] <[NI]Beta> that way large alliances want to play fair and then that eliminates powerplaying too ;)
[22:10:48] <[OA]h[OA]gie> i honestly dont think powerplaying is a big issue at all
[22:10:51] <[AK]Jaco> thabk you
[22:10:52] <[Ind]Striker073> the servers were originally merged because it couldn't handle the output of players
[22:10:55] <[Ind]Striker073> that's no longer an issue
[22:11:01] <[TA]Thalius> fair yeah, lots of people in Utopia want to play "fair" rofl
[22:11:01] <[ReV]Antriarc> whoohoo jaco speaks :)
[22:11:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> off topicccc
[22:11:06] <[AoD]Frost> Antriarc, Divinity; To be fair, sometimes alliances make players estatic about the game.  I've heard people say "I never knew Utopia was so big and good."  Sometimes they also don't want that higher level of involvement.  Not all alliances exist to dictate to their KDs what they do - Sometimes an alliance prefers to let KDs function on their own.
[22:11:06] <[Eclipse]skraz> ok
[22:11:09] <[FFS]Sneaky> "Powerplaying" doesnt exist
[22:11:10] <[Eclipse]skraz> this is jsut retarted
[22:11:11] <[Eclipse]skraz> sorry
[22:11:15] <[NI]Beta> me either but it sounded nice with the beating each other up in regional meetings with beer provided
[22:11:21] <[AK]Jaco> The issue is the widening gap between existing kds and new players entering
[22:11:22] <Cessna> heres how you fix utopia.....everyone get together and petition mehul to allow trading....come up with an ultimatum that he either does it or we all quit....get 10,000 names on that list he might consider it :)
[22:11:37] <[AK]Jaco> trading will only widen it further im afraid
[22:11:49] <[AK]Jaco> but why no do a pay for trade?
[22:11:55] <[NI]Duck> you'dd scare away the newer players even more
[22:12:06] <[AK]Jaco> why i suggest it is beyond me, itll never happen
[22:12:07] <[NI]Duck> since they don't know anyone, to be traded in a decent kd where they can learn
[22:12:09] <[ReV]Antriarc> that would work, bring money to develpe the game :p
[22:12:11] <Cessna> i think the vast majority of people quitting utopia are quitting because they spend time building a KD.....just to watch it destroyed in the push of a button
[22:12:12] <[TA]Thalius> people leave a system they do not benefirt from, very basic fundmental of group dynamics
[22:12:13] <[Ind]brado> i dont see how legalizing trading in any way would change utopia
[22:12:20] <[AK]Jaco> but the kingdoms now have all massive # of ages experience together
[22:12:21] <[ReV]Antriarc> maybe mehul can afford 2 servers again
[22:12:23] <[Ind]brado> nor would swirve ever allow it
[22:12:24] <[AK]Jaco> alliance or not
[22:12:27] <[Ind]brado> so why r we talking about it
[22:12:30] <[]Dirty> Whats the point of this discussion? Mehul has told us his stance several times.
[22:12:32] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Pertaining to Jacos comment about paying to trade, how about a trade legal server
[22:12:32] <[AK]Jaco> it puts all new players at a disadvantage
[22:12:33] <[]Dirty> Whats the point of this discussion? Mehul has told us his stance several times.
[22:12:39] <[Mod]a_arcane> #access is still open for anyone that needs help with something regarding the summit.
[22:12:40] <[Ind]brado> agreed
[22:12:49] <[TA]Thalius> eventuall all of those fed on will go play a game they have fun in
[22:12:49] <[Ind]brado> can we move to the next topic?
[22:12:51] <[FFS]Sneaky> Guys, you need to stop acting like you have an influence on what mehul does
[22:12:58] <[Ind]brado> sneaky
[22:13:03] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I think if enough players approached swirve we could have some influence
[22:13:10] <[Ind]brado> yah
[22:13:12] <[OA]h[OA]gie> i dont
[22:13:15] <[FFS]Sneaky> I think you're wrong
[22:13:16] <[AK]Jaco> WR - there isnt enough here
[22:13:19] <[ReV]Antriarc> petition mehul
[22:13:19] <[]Dirty> it will not, he has said that
[22:13:20] <[Ind]brado> in either case
[22:13:22] <[Ind]brado> that doesnt matter
[22:13:24] <[AK]Jaco> there would have to be at least half the game
[22:13:25] <[Eclipse]skraz> this is getting no where
[22:13:26] <Cessna> get 10-15,000 siggys, that might prompt him to at least consider it
[22:13:28] <[Eclipse]skraz> im out guys
[22:13:32] <[AK]Jaco> and a monetary amount already suggested
[22:13:35] <[OA]h[OA]gie> he wont consider it
[22:13:36] <[Mod]nosajr> HOLD ON FOR A SECOND.
[22:13:39] <[FFS]Sneaky> Mehul obviously doesnt care nearly as much as he used to about the game
[22:13:41] <[AK]Jaco> so that mehul understand the dollar per head he could gain
[22:13:45] <[OA]h[OA]gie> hes said before, utopia wasnt supposed to last this long
[22:13:56] <[NA]Ulrick> how would you get signatures when people are all around the world
[22:13:58] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> May I ask for a summary of what has been decided?
[22:14:00] <[Lotus]Peppie> dudes, let the mods regain control :P
[22:14:04] <Cessna> easy ulrick
[22:14:09] <Cessna> online petition form
[22:14:10] * [Ind]brado slaps [NA]Ulrick around a bit with a large trout
[22:14:13] <[Mod]nosajr> HOLD ON FOR SECOND. I said before. I will not tolerate negative comments and stuff that gets us nowhere. or else I will start -v people
[22:14:15] <Cessna> :P
[22:14:15] <[Mod]Divinity> be quiet
[22:14:15] <sasquatch> i think if mehule cared he would be here
[22:14:16] <[ReV]Antriarc> email addies:)
[22:14:16] <[NA]Ulrick> how easy to forge names
[22:14:17] <[AK]Jaco> Its fine, there isnt enough people here to even make a drop in the bucket
[22:14:24] <[Mod]Divinity> SHUT UP
[22:14:28] <[TA]Thalius> I think Mehul sees Utopia as a dwindling revenue source and the more the rvenue dwindles the less he cares about it
[22:14:33] <[Mod]Divinity> ...
[22:14:38] <[AK]Jaco> nor could we likely garner such support, so what we have here is fantasy thinking in a fantasy game
[22:14:43] <[AK]Jaco> which i guess is ironic
[22:14:43] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> just a question, how do we know Mehul is not, or he doesn't have someone here now?
[22:15:05] <[Mod]Divinity> anyone else want to talk when nosaj and I say stfu?
[22:15:11] * sasquatch looks over shoulder
[22:15:18] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> :)
[22:15:21] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> clear
[22:15:21] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> ops
[22:15:23] <[HaLL]Soul_Hunter> sorry
[22:15:26] <[Mod]Divinity> ...
[22:15:27] <[TA]General_Red> lol
[22:15:53] <[Mod]Divinity> okay
[22:15:54] <[Mod]Divinity> thank you
[22:16:01] <[Mod]nosajr> we might not be able to influence the game on the server side, but things can be done INSIDE the game that helps. I know that "only the weak need all these rules and regs" but it does help the game from dying quickly
[22:16:33] <[Mod]nosajr> elite alliances generally don't fear anything, or need any rules or regs to help them, as stated by many ppl already
[22:16:42] <[Mod]nosajr> but hte n00bs do need a bit of structure 
[22:17:00] <[HaLL]Midol> lol
[22:17:03] <[eX]Manny> lol
[22:17:04] <Cessna> maybe some of those elite alliances should start a n00b training facility :P
[22:17:11] <[eX]DrAlex> So the smaler alliances need to get bigger
[22:17:17] <[eX]DrAlex> 100 kds an alliance
[22:17:18] <[Mod]nosajr> or better
[22:17:19] <[eX]DrAlex> lol
[22:17:20] <[HaLL]Midol> thats a crock of bs if I ever heard it
[22:17:22] <[IND]KellawTA> cessna some alliance screen their members
[22:17:22] <[FFS]Sneaky> In any sport, they dont punish people for being good
[22:17:32] <[Mod]nosajr> alex, you know 100 kds in an alliance won't help them any against a good one ;p
[22:17:33] <[FFS]Sneaky> everyone else has to adapt to be able to compete
[22:17:42] <[Sin]Crad> smaller alliances dont need t oget bigger, just better, 30 kds of moslty noobs is hardly what you woudl call stable
[22:17:43] <[TA]General_Red> they punish for being mean,unfair and cowardly
[22:17:47] <[Mod]nosajr> ibut in any sport, you don't go into a game not knowing how to play at all
[22:17:48] <[HaLL]Midol> the "elite" alliances need the rules too  problem is they like to make them and break them
[22:17:59] <[HaLL]Midol> cause they "dont need them"
[22:18:01] <[eX]DrAlex> everyone breaks rules
[22:18:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> goddamned
[22:18:06] <[Ind]brado> laying down rules is pointless
[22:18:08] <[Lotus]Peppie> the mods had control for a second
[22:18:10] <[Ind]brado> nuff said
[22:18:11] <[Sin]Crad> exactly
[22:18:13] <[Lotus]Peppie> and now everyone is bsing again
[22:18:14] <[Mod]Matty|Work> (0##:##:15) (+[FFS]Sneaky) In any sport, they dont punish people for being good
[22:18:20] <[Mod]Matty|Work> What do you call a handicap?
[22:18:20] <[Mod]Divinity> skraz
[22:18:22] <[Mod]Divinity> before we move on
[22:18:26] <[Mod]Divinity> CSB is yelling at me
[22:18:27] <[Mod]Divinity> <[Eclipse]skraz> jonneyessen
[22:18:27] <[Mod]Divinity> <[Eclipse]skraz> is NOT a good kd
[22:18:27] <[Mod]Divinity> <[Eclipse]skraz> and i spit on his ghetto
[22:18:31] <[HaLL]Midol> so dont make the rules then
[22:18:33] <[Mod]Divinity> they wish for an apology for the flaming
[22:18:37] <Cessna> lol
[22:18:38] <[NoX]Timekeeper> i dont like this defination of "elite" alliances, how can u define such a thing?
[22:18:40] <[Eclipse]skraz> well
[22:18:40] <[Mod]trooneh> Div
[22:18:43] <[Eclipse]skraz> put it this way
[22:18:43] <[Eclipse]skraz> div
[22:18:43] <[HaLL]Midol> why have a farce of rules that apply to only a few
[22:18:44] <[FFS]Sneaky> [Mod]nosajr, thats the intent of the guide, if someone doesnt care enough to put the effort to actually READ THE INSTRUCTIONS to a game, they wont be sticking around long anyway
[22:18:48] <[Eclipse]skraz> i hate being grouped with kds that do that
[22:18:51] <Cessna> say your sorry skraz
[22:18:57] <[Eclipse]skraz> though i shouldnt have singled out a kd
[22:18:59] <[Mod]Divinity> skraz, just say you are sorry so that we can move on
[22:19:01] <[Eclipse]skraz> and i was wrong to single out any one kd
[22:19:01] <[eX]DrAlex> We are elite, you aren't TK, simple enough.. jk
[22:19:02] <[NI]Beta> TK you're insulted that others are in your class? :)
[22:19:07] <[Eclipse]skraz> so im sorry i singled out jonny
[22:19:10] <[Mod]nosajr> Sneaky that is not up for debate. a guide is like reading a book on how to drive. you can't drive because you read a book on it.
[22:19:12] <[Mod]Matty|Work> roflmao
[22:19:29] <[NoX]Timekeeper> beta, im on my own class :)
[22:19:30] <[IND]KellawTA> Any mod can set +v back to thalius?
[22:19:35] <[FFS]Sneaky> Also [Mod]nosajr, Mehul basically said he won't make changes based on what the majority thinks or wants, and doesn't care if the game dies because it has an expected shelf life
[22:19:38] <[ReV]Antriarc> hahaha...i drove before i could read :p
[22:19:59] <[Ind]brado> ty
[22:20:08] <[Mod]Divinity> okay guys
[22:20:10] <[SF]NOIR> get better when was the last time  any elite alliance took on a small kd an trained all the provinces an when we are done that kd moves onto an elite allaince its the way utopia works
[22:20:20] <[Mod]Divinity> are there anymore ideas on how to help keep the players we have?  or get more players?
[22:20:26] <[Lotus]Peppie> [Mod]Divinity
[22:20:30] <[Lotus]Peppie> i have some points
[22:20:34] <[Lotus]Peppie> but its quite a story :P
[22:20:39] <[ReV]Antriarc> Let lotus speak now
[22:20:42] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> We been working on helping out KDs that are non allied
[22:20:42] <[FFS]Sneaky> [Mod]nosajr, how can use of the guide NOT be up for discussion, when I first started Utopia, I read the guide.
[22:20:44] <[ReV]Antriarc> give him time
[22:20:52] <[Mod]Divinity> Peppie you may speak
[22:20:56] <[Mod]Divinity> everyone one else needs to be quiet
[22:20:57] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> trying to promote teaching other kds without expecting anything
[22:21:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> is auto kick flooding shite disabled?
[22:21:03] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> they want help from us we give it
[22:21:06] <[Lotus]Peppie> else im dead
[22:21:19] <[Ind]brado> sneaky > we have no controls over the guide? therefore its useless and pointless discussion
[22:21:30] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Lotus I've notived also offfers a hand now and then without expecting KDs to join first
[22:21:44] <[Lotus]Peppie> lets not talk about lotus :P
[22:21:48] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> we make the game we break the game
[22:22:00] <[Lotus]Peppie> ok
[22:22:08] <[Lotus]Peppie> im just going to paste it in parts and hope i wont get axed
[22:22:12] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> we want the game to improve it's in our hands
[22:22:15] <[ReV]Antriarc> Yeah but if mehul truely did not care he could break the game at any point, why does he not?
[22:22:21] <[Mod]nosajr> shut up
[22:22:25] <[TBH]legusta> agreed that alliances must grow and prosper without help from mehul's guide at all
[22:22:26] <[Lotus]Peppie> so heres lotus' argument -->
[22:22:31] <[Lotus]Peppie> There are extreme situations where one can speak of senseless/unfair destruction. There have been instances when a ghetto gets mercilessly decimated; the opening waves totally disable or kill off 2-3 provinces, after which random grabbing happens to farm as much honour as possible.
[22:22:36] <[Lotus]Peppie> The opposing side is usually cowed into submission by the opening violence. Now this seems like ruthless and unfair conduct, and these kind of situations may cause players to leave the game. Common courtesy, like an early CF + Surrender, would go a long way to ease the pain of these kind of conflicts.
[22:22:40] <[Lotus]Peppie> On the role of mediocre/ghetto alliances -->
[22:22:40] <[Lotus]Peppie> In terms of damage done to the appeal of the game, Lotus feels that big alliances such as abs/exodus etcetera play only a small role. Even the aforementioned ghettoslaying has only limited impact, and even vile things like crosslogging don't have much effect here.
[22:22:45] <[Lotus]Peppie> We believe that mediocre or ghetto alliances play the biggest part in inciting anti-alliance hatred and ruining the game for nubs, precisely because they are sitting in the middle of it and deal with these guys on a daily basis, while the rest of the 'elite' alliance world grows away into a realm where few are innocent anyway.
[22:22:48] <[Lotus]Peppie> The alliance wars ghettoalliances wage are countless, and alliance actions aren't used sparingly either. This also has effect amongst their own - there may be quite a number of nubs in ghettoalliance kingdoms getting hammered and their gameplay ruined because their leadership is happily waging some war.
[22:22:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> Punitive ghettoalliance actions, and ghettoalliance wars have the most profound impact on the newer players since they get caught in the middle of it, and those things happen all age long. So that's the gist of the problem. Various Lotus members have declared they wouldn't mind some community action against a certain alliance which is currently intentionally bashing ghettoalliances.
[22:22:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> Also, offensive alliances who have no qualms ganging up on single independent kingdoms have a hand in driving away the next generation of utopiaplayers.
[22:23:01] <[eX]DrAlex> no essays?
[22:23:25] <[Lotus]Peppie> at least its on topic
[22:23:36] <Cessna> i agree peppie
[22:23:47] <Cessna> makes good points there
[22:24:18] <[FFS]Sneaky> I agree that the "elite" alliances dont kill the game, its all you small kids with the war win kingdoms running around beating up the new people getting into the game
[22:24:28] <zapanap> nah
[22:24:36] <[Ind]brado> its a war game sneaky
[22:24:36] <zapanap> the warwin people aren't nearly as bad as the land-dropping honorfarmers
[22:24:36] <zapanap> ;p
[22:24:39] <[TBH]legusta> solo memberships could be possible way to influence new players as they grow into better players and eventually gain some control in their kd
[22:24:41] <[Ind]brado> your suppose to beat up ppl
[22:24:48] <[CSB]Thingol> yeah
[22:24:49] <[eX]DrAlex> whats the difference zapnap
[22:24:50] <[CSB]Thingol> lol
[22:24:57] <zapanap> warwin kds only want the win.
[22:25:00] <[Lotus]Peppie> i thought landdroppers didnt happen so often anymore?
[22:25:09] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> very well said by Lotus
[22:25:10] <zapanap> so they're ofc willing to accept cf/surrender at any point
[22:25:10] <[Ind]brado> so zap?
[22:25:10] <[NoX]Timekeeper> agree peppie, 100%
[22:25:12] <zapanap> since they don't want land
[22:25:13] <[FFS]Sneaky> Brado, you want to propose handicaps for new people yet you want to beat the living shit out of them?
[22:25:15] <[eX]DrAlex> lol i guess you got a point, but both do the same type of thing
[22:25:18] <zapanap> honor kds want to farm them
[22:25:19] <zapanap> yeah
[22:25:22] <zapanap> but the distinction is degree
[22:25:25] <[ReV]Antriarc> I encourage solo members in rev, for a while we have large group of solo members
[22:25:30] <[Ind]brado> um no? when did i ever say anything like that?
[22:25:33] <Cessna> zapanap makes a good point
[22:25:44] <Cessna> farming and warring usually two different things
[22:25:45] <[FFS]Sneaky> [##:##] <[Ind]brado> your suppose to beat up ppl
[22:25:50] <Cessna> farming = more destructive
[22:25:51] <[Ind]brado> exactly
[22:25:59] <dragos> yo
[22:26:02] <zapanap> well
[22:26:03] <zapanap> yes and no
[22:26:04] <[Ind]brado> how is that saying sumthing about handicaps for new ppl?
[22:26:15] <zapanap> farming isn't always more destructive than a destructive war :p
[22:26:21] <sasquatch> mmm
[22:26:28] <zapanap> but farming is more GENERALLY destructive across an entire kingdom, rather than on a province or two
[22:26:29] <sasquatch> okie how about this
[22:26:31] <Cessna> but the war winners dont usually get wrapped up in long wars
[22:26:34] <[TBH]legusta> Rev/Atri - yes, but for the most part solos aren't given much attention in alliances
[22:26:35] <[ReV]Antriarc> I dont mind at any point any newb contact me for help...in fact might be a way to help...have contacts listed for all new player to get help...
[22:26:40] <[FFS]Sneaky> Nevermind brado, you're clearly not even following your own train of thought
[22:26:46] <zapanap> i know that in the past i've had other kingdoms remark that we did more damage with our first wave farming for land/honor than kingdoms do in war
[22:26:50] <[ReV]Antriarc> most my councel is made of solo provs :)
[22:26:51] <Cessna> war winners worst enemy is a long destructive war
[22:26:51] <sasquatch> we form an accademy  from any willing members that want to help 
[22:27:05] <[ReV]Antriarc> 1 councel member is joined as a kd
[22:27:08] <[eX]DrAlex> yes sas
[22:27:10] <[ReV]Antriarc> myself im a solo
[22:27:23] <[eX]DrAlex> A cross-alliance academy to better the new players skills
[22:27:29] <[eX]DrAlex> So they stand more of a chance
[22:27:29] <[FFS]Sneaky> Training new people isnt the issue, peoples success in the game depends on their activity, thats something you cant teach
[22:27:32] <sasquatch> we set a site  have a permanaent ar announcemnt directing  traffic and all kds send noobs to be taught
[22:27:33] <[ReV]Antriarc> Yes the best of every alliance
[22:27:37] <[eX]DrAlex> activity does help
[22:27:41] <[eX]Manny> :P
[22:27:42] <[SF]NOIR> where would u post this contact list for newbs to get help cause they wont know about UT or AR msot prob
[22:27:43] <[eX]DrAlex> but it isn't the only thing keeping them back
[22:27:50] <[Mod]trooneh> DrAlex, question is, how would they find the academy?
[22:27:58] <[FFS]Sneaky> If someone cant make 2 hits a day, they wont be able to compete with people who can 
[22:28:00] <Cessna> alliance rankings.com
[22:28:03] <[ReV]Antriarc> forums, and old players can pass it on....you create a forum for it
[22:28:03] <[eX]DrAlex> We would need to go straight to the source
[22:28:07] <Cessna> word of mouth
[22:28:07] <[Lotus]Manimal> most war-win kds don't turn down an early CF+Surrender offer either ... if a kd asks for mercy it is typically granted.
[22:28:13] <[Eclipse]Selassie> argh
[22:28:18] <[AoD]Frost> The problem with an inter-alliance academy is that different people distrust different alliances.  Furthermore, can't we all just suggest that each KD link to Utopiatemple or something, and that people discuss whatever they need over there?  If it can be fixed, fix it before building a new one.
[22:28:20] <Cessna> promoting something like that is relatively easy trooneh
[22:28:24] <sasquatch> its responsibility of kds to direct traffic
[22:28:25] <[CSB]Thingol> there are plenty of n00bguides out there
[22:28:27] <[ReV]Antriarc> have that posted every age in kd forums...
[22:28:29] <[CSB]Thingol> no need for another
[22:28:35] <sasquatch>  just use ar yt as backup
[22:28:35] <[TA]Thalius> it comes from the reality that only those who go for nw or ratings matter
[22:28:50] <[TA]Thalius> the rest are just cannon fodder
[22:28:52] <[FFS]Sneaky> You cant teach activity, the one thing that matters
[22:28:58] <[ReV]Antriarc> yeah but im talking personal training...its better then reading it. Ide rather someone to help guide me like my monarch did
[22:29:04] <dragos> to keep a noob in this game you don't have to offer him away bonuses dammit...that only makes him forget to login :S
[22:29:08] <[TA]Thalius> many have the sae attide in rl
[22:29:09] <[NI]Duck> they don't quit cause they are noob, they quit because they don't like the game because they get slapped to oblivion and unable to fix it
[22:29:16] <[TA]Thalius> same attitude
[22:29:18] <sasquatch> well if its activity  naturally ththe less active become cannon fodder 
[22:29:19] <[CSB]Thingol> that personal training would work intra kd
[22:29:21] <[Mod]Devil> Plenty of n00b guides, indeed. But make one big one instead.
[22:29:28] <[TA]Thalius> right Duck
[22:29:34] <sasquatch> the diffrence is the active have a safety net
[22:29:36] <[AoD]Frost> We won't even touch on your former monarch, Antriarc ;)  However, Utopia is definitely an activity-important game.  Its the #1 way people survive.
[22:29:40] <[OA]h[OA]gie> the only guide you need is the guide
[22:29:44] <[Mod]trooneh> Not true
[22:29:46] <[Ind]Striker073> why would people want to teach others to play better?
[22:29:47] <[Mod]trooneh> What about using Angel?
[22:29:47] <[OA]h[OA]gie> utopia really isnt that hard
[22:29:53] <[OA]h[OA]gie> thats not a guide
[22:29:55] <[OA]h[OA]gie> thats a tool
[22:29:58] <[]Dirty> i have enough trouble teaching my kd :P
[22:30:00] <[Ind]Striker073> that seems counterintuitive
[22:30:04] <[ReV]Antriarc> to keep them longer
[22:30:05] <[Ind]brado> it is if your not on irc w/ a semi active kingdom hoagie
[22:30:08] <[ReV]Antriarc> better competition
[22:30:10] <[ReV]Antriarc> so many reasons
[22:30:22] <sasquatch> i  play gen to teach
[22:30:28] <[ReV]Antriarc> true
[22:30:28] * [OA]h[OA]gie shrugs
[22:30:32] <[Ind]Striker073> so I want to spend my time teaching my competition?
[22:30:37] <[Ind]Striker073> lol
[22:30:38] <[OA]h[OA]gie> teaching yourself isnt that difficult
[22:30:43] <sasquatch>   i said its chaioce
[22:30:46] <[ReV]Antriarc> if you want any competition left then its a good idea yes
[22:30:48] <[OA]h[OA]gie> it newbs are interested enough, they will do fine
[22:30:51] <[SF]NOIR> only way to teach ppl is in real time you send noobs to guides they just going to get lost in all the bs that goes with them
[22:30:54] <[Ind]brado> i agree
[22:30:55] <sasquatch> if you want to teach you can
[22:30:56] <[NI]Duck> it doesn't have to do with guides, it has to do with a limit of bashes you can take till you dislike the game enough to quit it :P
[22:31:03] <[CSB]Thingol> that the game is running empty isnt about the lack of skill really
[22:31:04] <[Ind]brado> you can only teach ppl who want to be taught
[22:31:09] <sasquatch> i dont mean a guide 
[22:31:17] <[ReV]Antriarc> I do whenever i can...:p maybe that is the problem with our newbs :)
[22:31:20] <sasquatch>  i mean a proactive university
[22:31:26] <[TBH]legusta> i think the game has evolved outside of its original intent and now the game is won or lost by how well we play the tools created by outside sources - i think that is quite overwhelming to noobs
[22:31:27] <[Mod]Divinity> I have to go, handing the meeting over to nosaj.  I will try to get back to people later.  Once again thank you for coming, and sorry for how hectic it was.  Should have set this up for next weekend.
[22:31:30] <[TA]Thalius> and shall we continue the lie that no one who needs to be active xlogs?
[22:31:51] <[Ind]brado> everyone xlogs now thalius
[22:31:52] <[AoD]Frost> Thank you for hosting, Divinity!  *Bows!*
[22:31:56] <[Ind]brado> thats the problem
[22:31:57] <[Ind]Striker073> really?
[22:32:11] <[FFS]Sneaky> Eventually the evolution of utopia will be complete, and the only people left playing will be the ones who know what they're doing and are active enough to compete at a top level
[22:32:12] <[Ind]Striker073> I hear a lot of xlogging accusations and not a lot of proof many times
[22:32:18] <[ReV]Antriarc> trying to understand angel and pimp are hard for a newb
[22:32:20] <[NI]Beta> xlogging is lame
[22:32:24] <[NoX]Timekeeper> how this went from alliance meeting to n00bs talk?
[22:32:25] <[Mod]nosajr> omg...
[22:32:25] <[TBH]legusta> exactly my point
[22:32:28] <[Mod]nosajr> i rule
[22:32:32] <[NI]Beta> if there is anything in the game that removes the skill, it's xlogging
[22:32:43] <[Ind]brado> but what can we do about that
[22:32:43] <sasquatch> Ind]brado
[22:32:45] <[ReV]Antriarc> Divinity brought it here...
[22:32:48] <sasquatch>  you r wrong
[22:32:52] <[Ind]brado> about?
[22:32:52] <[FFS]Sneaky> We should be discussing what we need to do to make the noobs quit faster, not stay longer
[22:32:58] <sasquatch> every xlogs
[22:32:59] <[Mod]trooneh> Why?
[22:33:01] <[OA]h[OA]gie> antriarc: no, it really isnt
[22:33:02] <[Mod]Devil> It would be interesting to have the numbers behind the times people are accused for x-logging, and then the true amount of xloggers.
[22:33:04] <[Ind]brado> i know
[22:33:05] <[Mod]trooneh> Are you saying you wish the game to die?
[22:33:08] <[NI]Duck> teaching noobs alone wont change much, they need to be active and their KD needs to be active.
[22:33:14] -[Lotus]AshenShugar- you should outline the fact that no lotus kd (those bad warwinners) ever xlogs
[22:33:14] <[FFS]Sneaky> I wish the game to be competitive
[22:33:15] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> To be honest I think the excessive trading is killing the game.  What's happening is we are getting a small body of good KDs with the most active players there<not necessarily the best players>.  The rest of Utopia suffers from this.  Smaller KDs watch over and over as new provinces delete out withint 12 hours of joing a KD.  As long as traded KDs simply feel the need to rape KDs that are 'ghetto' player turnover is go
[22:33:16] <[Ind]brado> by everyone > i meant organized top kds
[22:33:22] <[TA]Thalius> not everyone maybe only those who think it is important
[22:33:50] <[SF]Tyreal> teaching neewbies DOES work, if you see ur good at summin and thinks actually work it greatly motivates
[22:33:57] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I thought the purpose of playing a game is to be competative
[22:34:02] <[TA]Thalius> TKm so "noobs" have no place in tha game or only no place in the meeting?
[22:34:06] <sasquatch> your wrong again brado
[22:34:09] <[CSB]Thingol> yeah, ok...training is all pretty...but it does *not* help people stay
[22:34:13] <[SF]NOIR> ppl are only active when they enjoy the game an have friends within it an want  to gain somthing from it
[22:34:14] <[Ind]brado> sure thing
[22:34:18] <[FFS]Sneaky> Without all of the noobs, the game will be competitive without all the bullshit about powerplaying and bottomfeeding
[22:34:21] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> is it competative for a pro basketball team to challenge a group of guys who play at the park?
[22:34:43] <[ReV]Antriarc> yeah but power player people are leaving daily...noobs keep the game populated
[22:34:43] <[Ind]brado> whiterabbit nailed it
[22:34:45] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> the same goes for a huge alliance KD bottomfeeding a KD a 3rd it's size
[22:34:51] <[TA]Thalius> no, it is not but they have something the leet don't have, sportsmanship
[22:34:54] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> just because some new player retaled a hit 
[22:34:56] <[ReV]Antriarc> the game gets too low then mehul will discontinue it
[22:34:57] <[AoD]Frost> Sneaky; It'll be more competative, but it will get repetative.  Why do you think Serenety disbanded last age?  They got tired of being competative.
[22:35:00] <sasquatch> i think training willencourage friendship or at least promote team
[22:35:08] <zapanap> lol frost
[22:35:12] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> look you can be competative in a ghetto
[22:35:13] <zapanap> don't talk about things you don't know about :)
[22:35:15] <[Ind]brado> reshuffle!
[22:35:20] <[Ind]brado> problems solved
[22:35:21] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> you just have to work harder
[22:35:37] <[CSB]Thingol> if there's a reshuffle alot of people will quit
[22:35:41] <[ReV]Antriarc> I will promote it if you guys decide to do something...list of contacts or something. just a thought though
[22:35:45] <[CSB]Thingol> most people dont play cause the game is so great
[22:35:45] <[Mod]nosajr> Frost.. I don't want ot burst your bubble...but you're wrong on this point.
[22:35:54] <[NI]Duck> <[NI]Salomo|busy> teaching noobs alone wont change much, they need to be active and their KD needs to be active.
[22:35:54] <[NI]Duck> <[NI]Salomo|busy> I once played in a KD with several "retired" top KD players
[22:35:54] <[NI]Duck> <[NI]Salomo|busy> Even they got beat up badly almost regularly eventhough they knew quite a bit about the game... the KD was simply not active enough to give them any chance not to be fed upon constantly
[22:35:54] <[NI]Duck> <[NI]Salomo|busy> You can achieve some things with teaching noobs, but if even very experienced players are fed upon untill they are bored and give up, more than just teaching is needed
[22:35:54] <[AoD]Frost> Sure I am, I'm always wrong ;)
[22:35:54] <[FFS]Sneaky> The idea is to ADAPT
[22:35:57] <[CSB]Thingol> they play cause of those who they play the game with
[22:35:59] <[Ind]brado> this discussion is not only out of hand, off topic, but its taking us nowhere
[22:36:01] <[Ind]brado> ...
[22:36:19] <[TA]Thalius> we start from the premise in Utopia as in life everyone should have the same goals, Kahil Gibran taoled about the cripple who would outlaw dancing and the oxen who would clal the dear a stray and vagrant thing
[22:36:22] <zapanap> frost come up with another kingdom to use as an example, you don't know why serenity did what we did ;p
[22:36:53] <[AoD]Frost> I don't ;)  But you guys were winners and there is little reason to disband if all that matters is winning :)
[22:37:01] <[Eclipse]skraz> ok
[22:37:05] <[Eclipse]skraz> back up someone said reshuffle
[22:37:07] <[SF]Tyreal> mebbe we should talk about how to solve the stuff actually instead of bitching eachother
[22:37:09] <[Eclipse]skraz> that only helps cheaters
[22:37:13] <[Eclipse]skraz> that can script together
[22:37:16] <[Mod]nosajr> I don't want to see comments that border on flaming or comments that are not constructive. or single out a KD negatively.
[22:37:18] <[Eclipse]skraz> and hurts kds that dont
[22:37:19] <zapanap> the game hadn't been fun for a long time before we disbanded
[22:37:34] * [AoD]Frost nods softly toward Zapanap.
[22:37:39] <[NI]Beta> trading and scripting will get the good kingdoms together fast. reshuffle makes a larger gap from good to bad
[22:37:40] <[Ind]Striker073> reshuffling is out of our hands anyway
[22:37:42] <[Mod]nosajr> zapanap not constructive. please don't encourage quarreling
[22:37:46] <[Ind]Striker073> so it's pointless to talk about
[22:37:49] <zapanap> uhh, i'm not arguing
[22:37:51] <[FFS]Sneaky> The game hasnt been fun since age 17
[22:37:52] <[SF]Tyreal> striker is rite
[22:37:59] <[TA]Thalius> Zap, I think you make a good point and looking at the neumbers ho have quit more agree everyday
[22:38:01] <[NI]Beta> we need to emphasize the social aspect of this game
[22:38:02] <[AoD]Frost> No, I agree with Zapanap!  I don't see this as arguing at all ;)  May I ask why it wasn't fun, so that we might better understand?
[22:38:15] <[NI]Beta> the Romanians seem to do it better than anyone. they all meet up and hang out and have a good ol time
[22:38:17] <[FFS]Sneaky> Why do you guys WANT the game to last longer
[22:38:20] <[TA]Thalius> and the players are not gonna make it work for more people cause only the leet matter
[22:38:23] <[FFS]Sneaky> Utopia isnt forever
[22:38:25] <[NI]Beta> and alot of them stay in the game based on these friendships
[22:38:32] <zapanap> it's not an issue of being repetitive.. for us, it was an issue of the community
[22:38:33] <[NI]Beta> Why not everyone try this regionally
[22:38:45] <[ReV]Antriarc> because i want to be a 90 year old man squinting over my glasses one day playing utopia :p
[22:38:46] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Hey Sneaky do you know when Utopia was first invented?
[22:38:58] <[Ind]brado> you wont be playing the same utopia
[22:38:58] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> and I don't mean when it first came to the internet
[22:38:59] <[FFS]Sneaky> we all know why serenity disbanded, zauper was scared of me :)
[22:39:04] <[Lotus]Peppie> dudes
[22:39:06] <[Ind]brado> just like we are not playing the same utopia that we played in the betas
[22:39:13] <[TA]Thalius> lol Sneakey
[22:39:15] <[Eclipse]skraz> ?is there any reason to still talk
[22:39:16] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Utopia has been around since 1983
[22:39:32] <zapanap> utopia isn't fun in and of itself.  it's not an exciting game to play because of the numbers or anything like that
[22:39:35] <[TBH]legusta> the game has lost its appeal to many, imo, because it's now a game of who is best at using the many outside tools that aren't a part of the game
[22:39:39] <[TA]Thalius> no skraz only noobs are tlaking nowe, you are excused
[22:39:39] <[Lotus]Peppie> are there any counterarguments to the lotus position of      the lower tier of alliances ruin the shit of the bulk of the next utopian generation?
[22:39:40] <zapanap> it's fun to play because of the people you play with, and that's all
[22:39:47] <[Ind]Striker073> agreed zaup
[22:39:48] <[Lotus]Peppie> *ruining
[22:39:51] <[Ind]brado> jup
[22:39:56] <[CSB]Thingol> agreed with zauper as well
[22:39:58] <[TA]Thalius> why would you care what they think,e just cannon fodder
[22:39:59] <[ReV]Antriarc> tools has run the game down alot
[22:40:05] <[Eclipse]skraz> i agree with peppies first points
[22:40:07] <zapanap> enough of our players had quit because of time issues that we decided it wasn't worth it to play anymore
[22:40:09] <[Eclipse]skraz> he made ^ up there
[22:40:11] <[Eclipse]skraz> about the tiers
[22:40:18] <[Eclipse]skraz> but what to do about it i dont know
[22:40:46] <[Lotus]Peppie> if everyone can agree on the gist of the responsibility be at the bottom alliances, it may be time for us as a community to ask these alliances (i.e. their leaders) to adjust their code of conduct
[22:40:50] <[Lotus]Peppie> and be less triggerhappy
[22:40:52] <[SF]Tyreal> i still think letting people know how utopia works is the best solutions: why dont all alliances take some amount of noobs each age and train them to solve the stuff?
[22:40:57] <[SF]Tyreal> or is it too much asked?
[22:41:10] <[Lotus]Peppie> because right now no-one but the victims seem to care
[22:41:21] <[SF]Tyreal> guess so
[22:41:23] <[TA]Thalius> some beleive there should be rules of war and those who benefit violating them think there should be no rules in war except one, stay out of 1 to 1 wars cause they are ALL fair
[22:41:24] <[Lotus]Peppie> its too much asked, tyreal
[22:41:29] <zapanap> personally; i never minded teaching noobs or helping people who came to me with questions
[22:41:36] <[Eclipse]skraz> 1 vs 1 is always fair thalius
[22:41:37] <zapanap> the issue is when there's a conflict in beliefs
[22:41:41] <[Eclipse]skraz> the strong take from teh weak
[22:41:42] <[SF]Tyreal> though people should realise: you get much in return on long terms
[22:41:50] <zapanap> the beliefs of the 'ghetto' alliances and the 'elite' alliances are entirely different
[22:41:55] <[TA]Thalius> sure go fight Mike Tyson then tell me that Skrwaz
[22:42:02] <zapanap> so much so, that it's nearly impossible to reconcile them in a working manner
[22:42:02] <[Eclipse]skraz> skraz*
[22:42:04] <[SF]Tyreal> skraz, u should make the weak strong instead
[22:42:06] <[Lotus]Peppie> the beliefs shouldnt be an issue, zauper
[22:42:11] <zapanap> but it is.
[22:42:17] <[Eclipse]Selassie> i am with zauper, this has been a waste of time
[22:42:23] <[Eclipse]skraz> tyreal - why - they dont play with me
[22:42:25] <zapanap> How can i teach someone to play if they think bottomfeeding, for example, is morally wrong?
[22:42:27] <[Eclipse]skraz> they do play at your tier though
[22:42:30] <[Lotus]Peppie> i posited a cause and effect chain that people have yet to refute
[22:42:32] <[Eclipse]skraz> and your the ones that come in contact with them
[22:42:33] <[Eclipse]skraz> not us
[22:42:40] <[Eclipse]skraz> the onus is on you
[22:42:41] <[Eclipse]skraz> not us
[22:42:46] <[Eclipse]skraz> apart from very start of age
[22:42:47] <[SF]Tyreal> yeah, u dont care, i do
[22:42:48] <[Eclipse]skraz> we dont cross them
[22:42:49] <[Eclipse]skraz> at all
[22:42:57] <[SF]Tyreal> maybe u can search for them?
[22:43:01] <zapanap> if i tell them that bottomfeeding is a good way to grow, clearly they won't use it.. which means it won't go anywhere
[22:43:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> so if we can all agree that the ghetto alliances take most blame for player-committed nubscaring, we can work on from there
[22:43:04] <[TA]Thalius> Z Man if you truly beleive the way to success is by making those at the bottom leave the game, then....
[22:43:13] <[Eclipse]skraz> why would we search for small kds that wont bennefit us to play against?
[22:43:14] <zapanap> now, i don't necessarily agree that bottomfeeding is the best way to grow.
[22:43:16] <zapanap> but uh thalius
[22:43:22] <zapanap> bottomfeeding doesn't really cause people to quit
[22:43:31] <[Mod]Devil> They only think bottomfeeding is wrong, because beginners ends up in ghettos, which believe in "honourable" playing. There's where they all get it from.
[22:43:35] <[Ind]brado> the relations system is the flaw 
[22:43:40] <[Ind]brado> not bottom feeding
[22:43:42] <[TA]Thalius> 35,072 provinces now and may are doubles or more
[22:43:43] <[Ind]brado> not powerplaying
[22:43:45] <[ReV]Antriarc> no its bad monarchs
[22:43:45] <[Eclipse]skraz> i dont bottom feed
[22:43:46] <[Eclipse]skraz> i hit up
[22:43:50] <[SF]Tyreal> skraz, peopl with experience could make them big
[22:43:53] <[Eclipse]skraz> rkng bennefits high offense and top feeding
[22:43:55] <[SF]NOIR> skraz u don't go near them so the b/f kd's dun targ big provinces in ghetto kd's no more cause no one can retal for em?
[22:43:58] <[Lotus]Peppie> there are many reasons utopia isnt flourishing anymore, and there are many reasons why players are quitting, but AT LEAST we can attempt to prevent as many of those reasons as possible
[22:44:06] <[SF]Yume> Utopia has always been a game where the stronger "feed" on the weaker players completely forgetting respect on fellow players and responsibility on their actions
[22:44:10] <[Ind]brado> gl peppie
[22:44:10] <[Eclipse]Selassie> Pepsi, how?
[22:44:13] <[AoD]Frost> 35K accounts?  I checked a little while ago and it was 34.5K.
[22:44:17] <zapanap> the issue is that honor is relative
[22:44:24] <[ReV]Antriarc> the answer is stop electing retarted monarchs...one thing in my old kd i agree about is frost was a deacent monarch
[22:44:28] <[NI]Beta> [AoD]Frost: that's because 500 just got scripted
[22:44:29] <[Lotus]Peppie> well, for a start, lets talk about that instead of all the other random shit going on
[22:44:36] <[TA]Thalius> anyone who topfeeds has my respect, beating on the weak has never been a trait to be admired in my universe
[22:44:39] <[ReV]Antriarc> 200 of that 500 might stay
[22:44:42] <[Eclipse]skraz> thalius
[22:44:44] <[Eclipse]skraz> top feeding
[22:44:45] <zapanap> thal
[22:44:45] <[Eclipse]skraz> with rkng
[22:44:50] <[Eclipse]skraz> is almost liek feeding on teh weak
[22:44:51] <zapanap> top feeding only works for so long
[22:44:53] <[Mod]nosajr> HOLD ON. THIS IS GETTING OUT OF CONTROL AGAIN. 
[22:44:53] <zapanap> what do you do when you're #1?
[22:45:01] <[NI]Duck> explore :P
[22:45:09] <[TA]Thalius> try and stay n#1
[22:45:09] <[Eclipse]skraz> zauper is right though my kd is never #1 so i dont have that problem :P
[22:45:23] <[Mod]nosajr> I SAID SHUT UP
[22:45:24] <[Mod]Devil> Thalius, why should you let a weak player grow big? He/she will not learn from His/her mistakes then
[22:45:43] <[Ind]brado> good point
[22:45:44] <[TA]Thalius> no but let people his own size bring him down
[22:45:45] <[Mod]nosajr> ok well, geeezus...lots of talk, going nowhere fast.
[22:45:51] <zapanap> but when you're #1, you have no option but to bottomfeed... the issue is
[22:45:51] <zapanap> hm
[22:45:59] <[Lotus]Peppie> keep trying, nosajr
[22:46:04] <[Lotus]Peppie> eventually they'll shup
[22:46:06] <zapanap> the best way to grow in this game
[22:46:10] <zapanap> is to gain land.
[22:46:11] <zapanap> the best way to gain land
[22:46:13] <zapanap> is to not be hit.
[22:46:24] <[Eclipse]skraz> and thalius
[22:46:25] <zapanap> the best way to not be hit is to hit people that have less offense than you have defense.
[22:46:26] <[Abs]Chai> don't powerplay, zauper.  no one likes a powerplayer.
[22:46:29] <[Eclipse]skraz> we do hit our own size
[22:46:30] <[TA]General_Red> zapanap AND explore
[22:46:32] <[Eclipse]skraz> this bottom feeding
[22:46:33] <zapanap> thus, the best way to grow is to hit someone smaller than you.
[22:46:35] <[Eclipse]skraz> is usually on provs
[22:46:37] <[TA]Thalius> as in may situations only those at the top deserve any concern, in my country, we have the best governmetn that money can buy
[22:46:38] <zapanap> explorepool is limited, general red.
[22:46:38] <[Eclipse]skraz> that have outgrown thier kd
[22:46:41] <[TA]General_Red> some ppl do not like to explore at all
[22:46:50] <zapanap> thal
[22:47:01] <zapanap> what prevents people in the middle from bottomfeeding?  or people in the bottom?
[22:47:10] <zapanap> unless you have 1 acre, you can prolly hit someone with less offense than you have defensive.
[22:47:15] <zapanap> that's the principle of growth.  hit someone that can't hit you.
[22:47:20] <[TA]Thalius> I know when I get hit by somoen twice my size all I can do is suck it up and move on
[22:47:26] <zapanap> or, fight a kingdom that can't effectively hit you.
[22:47:33] <[TA]Thalius> or play a game I have fun playing
[22:47:54] <sasquatch> lets get some order back to this please
[22:47:58] <[NoX]Timekeeper> whats ur solution thalius?
[22:48:08] <[Eclipse]skraz> can people shup
[22:48:08] <[Lotus]Peppie> :D
[22:48:10] <[Eclipse]skraz> sas take over
[22:48:13] <[Eclipse]skraz> moderate it
[22:48:23] <[Ind]brado> stfu
[22:48:23] <zapanap> if the solution is to say.. you can't hit someone under a certain % your size, that's silly.  i'll stop talking now so they can take control tho
[22:48:23] <[TA]Thalius> TK, my momma told me "pick on somoen your own size"
[22:48:23] <zapanap> ;p
[22:48:42] <[TBH]legusta> this would never work becuase it would involve mehul, but just for arguments sake, if players could be ranked somewhow as to experience level, then maybe noobs wouldnt get hammered by experienced players and their skill level could improve and they'd keep confidence and interest in playing game
[22:49:03] <[TA]Thalius> ief everyone beats up the little monkey and the little monkey can leave the game what do you predict happens?
[22:49:17] <[Abs]Chai> I start beating on the next smallest monkey?
[22:49:28] <[NoX]Timekeeper> i beat the slightly bigger monkey?
[22:49:33] <zapanap> that's the thing thalius.. sks don't hit 200 acre noobs anymore.. i believe mehul fixed the 5 acre minimum gains bug, at least.
[22:49:35] <[TA]Thalius> so the pool gets smaller and smaller and more and more leet
[22:49:36] <[Mod]nosajr> until there are no more monkeys jumping on the bed
[22:50:03] <sasquatch> guys please  get it back in order
[22:50:13] <sasquatch> lets start from this point 
[22:50:24] <[Eclipse]Selassie> sasquatch, this tbh isn't working
[22:50:29] <sasquatch>  do we think a non alligned accademy will help
[22:50:31] <[NoX]Timekeeper> thalius, u cant efficiently grow by hitting people who can retal you
[22:50:49] <sasquatch> sasquatch>  do we think a non alligned accademy will help
[22:50:52] <[SF]Tyreal> sas, i thinks thats a good idea, however it will never be realised
[22:50:54] <sasquatch> sasquatch>  do we think a non alligned accademy will help
[22:51:02] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Sasquatch I do
[22:51:05] <sasquatch> this was realised?
[22:51:22] <[Sin]Crad> sasq- no
[22:51:26] <[Eclipse]skraz> guys
[22:51:27] <[SF]Tyreal> people want not to commit all their free time in teaching, and who is to lead it?
[22:51:28] * [Mod]Devil slaps GimmeVOICEanyone around a bit with a large trout
[22:51:29] <[Eclipse]skraz> selassie is taking over
[22:51:30] <[Eclipse]skraz> for eclipse
[22:51:32] <[Eclipse]skraz> im off to sleep
[22:51:34] <[Mod]Devil> GimmeVOICEanyone; nope
[22:51:36] <[Eclipse]skraz> stayed up all night for that
[22:51:40] <zapanap> i doubt it sas, unless you can have people come up with a solid idea of the way the game should be played
[22:51:42] <zapanap> and i'm guessing.. you can't.
[22:51:44] <[Sin]Crad> since the leaders of those "noob" alliances need better leadership more than anything
[22:51:46] <[Eclipse]skraz> laters all
[22:51:54] <[Sin]Crad> cya skraz :)
[22:52:18] <[Sin]Crad> lots of kds out there beign help back powerhungry moanrchs who slow thigns down
[22:52:22] <[Sin]Crad> *held
[22:52:26] <sasquatch> well what about a monarch training program
[22:52:30] <sasquatch> ?
[22:52:31] <[Sin]Crad> its not n4eccessarily the skillz of the players
[22:52:44] <zapanap> i'm not sure a formal thing is best, in any case
[22:52:46] <sasquatch> its the ideals of the leadership
[22:52:46] <zapanap> but
[22:52:50] <[Mod]Devil> what should such a monarch training camp include?
[22:52:50] <[Eclipse]Selassie> monarch training programme?
[22:52:52] <[Eclipse]Selassie> please
[22:53:01] <[Eclipse]Selassie> this is getting more and more ridiculous
[22:53:05] <[Sin]Crad> u cant have such a program
[22:53:10] <zapanap> if anyone in any alliance pms me asking for advice, i'd be more than willing to help them, even though i don't play the game anymore.
[22:53:10] <[IND]KellawTA> we have it in TA
[22:53:11] <[Sin]Crad> being a leader comes anbturally
[22:53:15] <[Sin]Crad> *naturally
[22:53:17] <[Sin]Crad> u dont learn it 
[22:53:19] <zapanap> so take note of that, 'ghetto' alliances ;p
[22:53:46] <[Lotus]Peppie> eh, i learned to lead :P its just another skill
[22:53:51] <[Sin]Crad> look at most of the better alliances and kds, they all have good leaders
[22:53:56] <[Lotus]Peppie> but man, this discussion is going nowhere
[22:54:03] <[Sin]Crad> u can only learn so much tho peppie
[22:54:07] <[Lotus]Peppie> mods arent going to try and seize control?
[22:54:16] <[NA]Ulrick> it can work for diplomats it cant work for kingdom monarchs
[22:54:27] <[Mod]Devil> <zapanap> if anyone in any alliance pms me asking for advice, i'd be more than willing to help them, even though i don't play the game anymore. --- HaJ (the alliance) this was what you requested several ages ago. Now use it.
[22:54:32] <[Mod]nosajr> i'm just going to start devoicing anyone who doesn't come with constructive comments, instead of negative ones
[22:54:33] <[SF]Tyreal> i think we should look to the general atmosphere of the game instead; there were times monarchs actually had the chance getting good and experienced without being beaten meanwhile
[22:54:35] <[CSB]Thingol> and the running empty of utopia has very little to do with skill
[22:54:49] <[Mod]Devil> I'm off ... night everyone.
[22:54:56] * [Mod]Devil is now known as Devil
[22:55:39] <[Ind]brado> shame this didnt accomplish anything
[22:55:41] <[TA]Thalius> TK that is right, it is a rwal challenge to face a competitir over a victim
[22:56:08] <[TA]Thalius> well I have said enough, the big hit the small and the game gets smaller and the big can';t see the connection
[22:56:37] <[TA]Thalius> we can all go play guild wars
[22:56:38] <[Sin]Crad> another reason i think neds to be brought up is the stability of alliances, every1 knows that an allaince of 30 small kds is never going to be stable, and it will cause more problems in the long term, esp if the wrong ppl are in charge
[22:57:11] <[Lotus]Peppie> haj has been sort of stable since forever though
[22:57:20] <[Eclipse]Selassie> thank you
[22:57:27] <[Sin]Crad> sort of stable and stable are different
[22:57:58] <[Eclipse]Selassie> can i ask, where does tonight leave us?
[22:58:01] <[TA]Thalius> I thank you for allowing me here, I know there are some challenging issues here and some only want to do what is obvious and easy
[22:58:22] <[Lotus]Peppie> i dont think this summit is or has been useless
[22:58:28] <sasquatch> e
[22:58:30] <[Lotus]Peppie> its good to see what everyone thinks
[22:58:33] <[Mod]nosajr> it at least gets out some stuff in the open. 
[22:58:41] <[CSB]Thingol> its good to see other alliances talk with each other in mass ;)
[22:58:48] <[Lotus]Peppie> i never went to talk in here with the hope that there would be some utopian rules established
[22:58:49] <sasquatch> Eclipse]Selassie
[22:58:49] <[TA]Thalius> no, I have heard some things that have made me think and I argue thinking is good for humans
[22:58:54] <[CSB]Thingol> might not be a bad idea to start some channel for all alliance leaders
[22:59:13] <[Lotus]Peppie> well, a KD mate of mine proposed to keep this channel running
[22:59:20] <[SF]Tyreal> thingol that was done before
[22:59:22] <zapanap> channel name is too long :p
[22:59:24] <[Lotus]Peppie> preferably with all the important utopian people around
[22:59:25] <zapanap> plus there's already something like that
[22:59:28] <[eX]Manny> lol zapanap
[22:59:28] <[CSB]Thingol> was it? before my time i guess ;)
[22:59:29] <sasquatch>  i think this has lefty us at a point where many smally codes of conduct will be formed between individual groups
[22:59:32] <[CSB]Thingol> is there?
[22:59:34] <[NI]Beta> thingol i saw one created but i dont think many people used it because it was created by lower alliances
[22:59:35] <[SF]Tyreal> no
[22:59:35] <[CSB]Thingol> i dont know of it
[22:59:39] <[TA]Thalius> mazny alliance leaders can only respect an alliance that can hurt them
[22:59:42] <[SF]Tyreal> was #leaders or summin
[22:59:45] <zapanap> ./j #ab
[22:59:49] <zapanap> :p
[22:59:53] <[SF]Tyreal> though wasnt that succesfull
[22:59:57] <[TA]Thalius> miss you Z-Man
[22:59:58] <[CSB]Thingol> its always the problem of wide adaptation of these ideas
[23:00:00] <zapanap> we made it last age, though i don't think anyone every joined
[23:00:00] <zapanap> <3 thal
[23:00:04] <[eX]DrAlex> yes, individual agreements sound like the biggest key at this point as there are too many varied points of view
[23:00:31] <[Lotus]Peppie> i havent noticed, but i think its useful to have a channel like this where people can complain or where we as a community have some listening ear for utopian problems
[23:00:38] <[TA]Thalius> may I suggest a minor approach to this problem we have in place?
[23:00:41] <[CSB]Thingol> yeah, agreed
[23:01:06] <[Lotus]Peppie> i dont want to throw with shit, but issues like AK going around intimidating ghetto alliances may have a profound impact on the happiness of many players
[23:01:28] <[eX]Manny> lol so what then
[23:01:35] <[eX]Manny> we all go and kill AK for powerplay ?
[23:01:39] <[Lotus]Peppie> well, its at least useful to talk about it
[23:01:44] <[Lotus]Peppie> maybe denounce it, i dont know
[23:01:54] <[eX]Manny> its a differently purposed alliance
[23:01:57] <[Lotus]Peppie> id rather have a crappy UN than nothing at all :P
[23:02:05] <[eX]Manny> if you dont like it, go and pawn the shit out of them ;)
[23:02:05] <[Ind]Cheszedar> What exactly is the topic right now?
[23:02:18] <[Lotus]Peppie> yeah but one of the premises of this meeting was that we should give a shit about the next generation of utopians
[23:02:25] <[SF]NOIR> only thign we can do is get rid of em or cease all relations with an alliance that does such things
[23:02:35] <[Lotus]Peppie> because most of us seem to like this game and like to see it running as long as possible
[23:02:43] <[TA]Thalius> I have a rule, as soon as your news say wwar will start... my kds can add WAR to their tag and keep TA, too and I assume anyone should CE and if they hit it is oow
[23:02:48] <[Ind]Cheszedar> nosajr, what's the current topic?
[23:03:02] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I can't figure it out from the current comments, which seem mostly about random complaints
[23:03:09] <[Mod]nosajr> right now, it kind of spiraled out of control ;p
[23:03:12] <zapanap> thalius, the issue is the number of people that abuse it
[23:03:15] <[Ind]Cheszedar> what SHOULD the topic be?
[23:03:27] <zapanap> people who put hostile in their kdname when they aren't, or war when they're going to fw.. etc
[23:03:28] <[TA]Thalius> Z-Man a CE stops abuse doesn't it?
[23:03:35] <[SF]NOIR> [0##:##3] <[TA]Thalius> I have a rule, as soon as your news say wwar will start... my kds can add WAR to their tag and keep TA, too and I assume anyone should CE and if they hit it is oow 
[23:03:39] <[SF]NOIR> [0##:##3] <[TA]Thalius> I have a rule, as soon as your news say wwar will start... my kds can add WAR to their tag and keep TA, too and I assume anyone should CE and if they hit it is oow 
[23:03:40] <[TA]Thalius> a CE is not a very hard spell to cast
[23:03:43] <[Mod]nosajr> HOLD ON. WE NEED TO GET A FOCUS ON A TOPIC AND SOMETHING STRAIGHT. NOT RANDOM COMPLAINTS AND COMMENTS ABOUT WHO DID WHAT TO WHO
[23:03:47] <zapanap> sure, but why should i waste my mana CEing every kingdom with hostile/war in their name for a random then 75% of them aren't in any relations?
[23:03:52] <zapanap> it is when you're targetsearching and you're low on mana :/
[23:04:01] <[Ind]Cheszedar> What has been discussed so far of any importance?
[23:04:09] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I was around for the beginning, which was double hostiles
[23:04:22] <[Ind]Cheszedar> And then I was dragged, kicking and screaming, to go "shopping" with my dear dear parents
[23:04:23] <[TA]Thalius> Z-Man so the problem should have no solution or do you have an alternate?
[23:04:26] <[Ind]Cheszedar> So forgive me for being clueless
[23:04:50] <[Mod]trooneh> A stupid idea, but an idea all the same, is have them make their banner a screenshot of the declaration
[23:04:58] <zapanap> the solution is that people shouldn't tag hostile/war unless they're really in it.
[23:04:59] <[Ind]Cheszedar> That will take too much effort
[23:05:08] <[Mod]nosajr> zap, then what would you suggestto stop abuse?
[23:05:10] <[Ind]Cheszedar> The burden is on the one waving, not the one going to war
[23:05:12] <zapanap> the solution is that people shouldn't tag hostile/war unless they're really in it.
[23:05:14] <zapanap> ^^
[23:05:21] <[Ind]Cheszedar> You should, as a matter of courtesy, take a CE before waving
[23:05:23] <[TA]Thalius> Ches I think the trouble is how do yhou define a hoistile and once defined how do you put people on notice you are in hiostile
[23:05:24] <zapanap> and if they do tag hostile/war when they aren't in it, then everyone should ignore the tag in the future.
[23:05:28] <zapanap> agreed ches
[23:05:31] <zapanap> but before a random?
[23:05:32] <[Eclipse]Selassie> fact is (and here comes another gag, probably permanent this time) - we are still at the same place we were 3 hours ago
[23:05:33] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Fine, then go backwards
[23:05:37] <[Ind]Cheszedar> What do we find clearly unacceptable?
[23:05:39] <[Ind]Cheszedar> and go from there
[23:05:48] <[Ind]Cheszedar> So may we say that waving into a real war is unacceptable?
[23:05:57] <[Eclipse]halla> lol
[23:05:57] <[Mod]nosajr> you're good at predicting things
[23:06:00] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Yes?
[23:06:00] <[eX]Manny> lol...
[23:06:05] <[TA]Thalius> Z-Man so if some abuse it then we should not have the rule at all?
[23:06:07] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Agree with me, not "lol"
[23:06:18] <[Ind]Cheszedar> This won't work if you don't participate ;x
[23:06:41] <[Ind]Cheszedar> And there was silence.
[23:06:54] <[TA]Thalius> I think waving into a real war is pretty universally agreed to be wrong and one of the rare things Mehul punishes you for
[23:07:00] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Fine
[23:07:11] <[Ind]Cheszedar> How about waving into a war that's already shown in the papers?
[23:07:16] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Is this "clever" or "cowardly?"
[23:07:17] <[NI]Tamolin> if you want to make rules first off you need to be able to enforce them..best way to handle anything as things are is to propose something..have a vote between alliances as to ya or nay..than if it is accepted have all alliance stand to protect that rule..any breaking it face everyone
[23:07:21] <zapanap> i think my solution is better, thalius
[23:07:22] <[eX]Manny> [RHK]Kemo  <<-- Round House Kick alliance =PPPP
[23:07:28] <zapanap> if someone abuses it, they get no protection from randoms.
[23:07:33] <zapanap> for the rest of the age.
[23:07:38] <[Ind]Cheszedar> You don't need rules yet, you need consensus on what is acceptable and what isn't
[23:07:42] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Which I don't see being discussed
[23:07:50] <[TA]Thalius> that is what I was just discussing but Z-Man finds my response not valid
[23:07:56] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Again, is it acceptable to wave into a kd whose papers show a war declaration?
[23:08:12] <[CSB]Dri> In my opinion, clearly unacceptable is waving in a war in the full sense of the word, also, the CE idea will not work because most kingdoms did not apply it too much before and they will also not, specially on small waves. Full waves (Most provinces) will have it taken, of course, in organised kingdoms, but small ones (A few provinces) will not.
[23:08:18] <[CSB]Thingol> as far as i know we already discussed that 
[23:08:26] <[TA]Thalius> in TA if you do it we consider it an oow hit if our kd has TA and WAR in their tag
[23:08:34] <sasquatch> depends on if its fw [Ind]Cheszedar
[23:08:39] <[Ind]Cheszedar> That doesn't answer my question
[23:08:47] <[TA]Thalius> I do not know what more we can do to say, CE us, please
[23:08:50] <[CSB]Dri> Besides that, I think that if a kingdom is in active hostile/OOW and gets waved, even if its name says WAR or if the banner does, the relations do not show it, so they can always take back the wave and get back on those who waved them in hostile/OOW.
[23:08:53] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Ok, how about for nonfake wars?
[23:09:01] <[TBH]legusta> it is not acceptable - as we also change KD name and banner to reflect war declaration
[23:09:01] <zapanap> thalius, people abuse it.  what's your problem with my solution to the abuse?  ;p
[23:09:04] <[Lotus]Arbulus> i think the only 'enforcable' and atleast clear definition of a no-go when it comes to active hostiles, is when war is arleady declared                                              
[23:09:19] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Arbulus, the point is to take the common agreement and work backwards
[23:09:25] <[Lotus]Arbulus> as the kd's involved lose the ability to declare another kd that hits into them
[23:09:30] <[Ind]Cheszedar> As long as *MOST* agree we may consider it a "rule"
[23:09:35] <[Ind]Cheszedar> That's how all societies work
[23:09:38] <[TA]Thalius> Z-Man, I assume I was being entertained by the murmer of my self obsession and missed yorur solution
[23:09:43] <[Mod]nosajr> we've pretty much agreed that hitting into REAL wars is not acceptable, FW is ok, and KDs going into war isn't unacceptable too. but the biggest problem lies in double declaring, which I'll bring back up again. since this was a HOT point of contention early on
[23:09:45] <[AoD]Frost> This will be unfortunately my last contribution unless this goes on for a long time.  I'm visiting my mother in the hospital.  If indeed we can come to a consensus, a sort of codified agreement can be written out by the mods of this discussion and alliances that agree to the terms can sign it - Sort of like an international accord.  Those who do not agree do not; those who do are putting themselves forward as parties to 
[23:09:52] <zapanap> 	<zapanap>	if someone abuses it, they get no protection from randoms.
[23:09:53] <zapanap> 	<zapanap>	for the rest of the age.
[23:10:11] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Why is double declaring wrong?
[23:10:16] <zapanap> so.. if i CE someone with war in their kdname, they aren't in war/have declared war, i put them on a list with that info and they get no more protection from randoms.
[23:10:18] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Because it's cowardly?
[23:10:23] <[Ind]Cheszedar> or for some other reason?
[23:10:42] <[Ind]Cheszedar> You must illuminate the underlying principle before going for a course od action
[23:10:45] <[AoD]Frost> they will follow it and expect it to be followed on them.  That's about all I really have to say; the exact agreements made are up to the Mods, perhaps by yay-nay vote of other alliances out there.  If an alliance is later to violate that agreement, perhaps an inter-alliance penalty can be worked out among those who sign it, I don't know.  Its a voulentary thing, anyway.
[23:10:47] <[Ind]Cheszedar> *of
[23:10:49] <[TA]Thalius> oh you mean if my kds abuse it, well I had not considered they would abuse it and if they calaima violation they have to include the news item War will start...
[23:10:51] <[AoD]Frost> Take care, all!
[23:11:00] <[CSB]Dri> good bye, [AoD]Frost
[23:11:01] <[Ind]Cheszedar> bye Frost, hope your mom is ok
[23:11:12] <[TA]Thalius> bye Frost
[23:11:21] <[Mod]nosajr> HOLD ON
[23:11:25] <sasquatch> GUYS QUIET A BIT PLEASE
[23:11:25] <[TA]Thalius> our best for her
[23:11:25] <[Lotus]Peppie> so the current topic is hostiles again?
[23:11:27] <zapanap> yeah thal, i mean if someone abuses the war/hostile tag to try and avoid getting randomed
[23:11:31] <[AoD]Frost> Thanks for the well wishes :)  Ja!
[23:11:35] <sasquatch> HOLD
[23:11:36] <[Mod]nosajr> early on, we had various definitions of what a double hostile or a double declare was.
[23:11:39] <zapanap> then they get no more protection while in hostile/having war declared for the age
[23:11:50] <[TA]Thalius> ok
[23:11:50] <[Mod]nosajr> and those were set and different through the eyes of diff KDs
[23:11:52] <[Mod]trooneh> eh
[23:11:56] <sasquatch> HOLD HOLDS HOLD
[23:12:00] <[Mod]trooneh> EVERYONE HOLD
[23:12:18] <sasquatch> lets get back to a topic and start there 
[23:12:23] <sasquatch>  1st 
[23:12:30] <sasquatch> \ let me say this
[23:12:38] <[Mod]nosajr> whether you're abs, ex, nox, or a solo KD, no one likes to be doubled...but what defines a double? 
[23:12:43] <[Mod]nosajr> i don't want HUGE essays
[23:12:46] <sasquatch> some are saying this is waste of time
[23:12:50] <[Mod]nosajr> because of little nuances
[23:13:13] <sasquatch>  however this is a starting point \ i dont expect an encompassing doctrine 
[23:13:28] <[Mod]nosajr> if they think it's a waste of time, and otehrs don't, personally, I don't think that any one person has a "better" opinion than another
[23:13:30] <[Lotus]Arbulus> i'd say basicly 2 kd's actively and focussesly (semi-exclusively) exchanging hits
[23:13:38] <zapanap> what's a double hostile?  When you're in a hostile and someone else waves you.
[23:13:48] <[Ind]Cheszedar> It's not that simple, nor has it ever been
[23:14:14] <[Lotus]Peppie> theres one situation that should be understandable
[23:14:16] <[Ind]Cheszedar> The reason for not liking double hostiles is that we have a feeling that the "best kingom" should win, and "best" does not include having nice friends
[23:14:18] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Yes or no?
[23:14:18] <[TA]Thalius> I have a kd who just got waved by 2 kds from the same alliance who is sure that is a double hostile act
[23:14:20] <[Lotus]Arbulus> i don't think it will every work to definie numbers of attacks, hours prior/past, and what not, because nobody will every agree to this
[23:14:41] <[Lotus]Peppie> if KD A waves the living daylight out of KD B - i think its VERY FAIR to state that KD B does NOT deserve another wave by whoever
[23:14:41] <[Abs]Li> lalalala
[23:14:45] <[Mod]nosajr> zapanap when are you actually hostile? when the other Kds retals? when the other KD waits and retals? no time period? if you wave someone and they wait to wave back? if yo uwave someone and you get 1 hit back? if yo uwave someone and they haven't waved back and someone else waves the same KD?
[23:14:47] <[Abs]Li> i haven't talked all chat
[23:14:49] <[Lotus]Peppie> that'd be vicious 2v1ing
[23:14:55] <[NA]Ulrick> thalius alegedly from the same alliance
[23:15:11] <[Abs]Li> personally what i think, instead of rules
[23:15:12] <zapanap> shrug, the question of when you're hostile is where you'll have trouble.  You asked for a definition of a double declare, so that's what i gave you.
[23:15:22] <[Abs]Li> is we need to get back to treating each other with mutual respect
[23:15:31] <[Mod]trooneh> I agree
[23:15:35] <zapanap> The answer to when a hostile exists is something that is more up to individual discretion.  I think most people recognize a hostile when they see one, but are unwilling to admit that because they want free acres.
[23:15:36] <[Abs]Li> being able to trust one another's words, not trash talk the kd you're waving
[23:15:48] <sasquatch> thats the real point  [Abs]Li
[23:15:52] <[TBH]legusta> agreed Abs\Li
[23:15:54] <zapanap> but li... beauty is a bunch of noobs :(
[23:15:59] <[Abs]Li> some mutual respect on any 2 sides tends to go a lot longer way than any agreements
[23:16:01] <[Abs]Li> they do =(
[23:16:19] <[Mod]nosajr> ofc you're right
[23:16:23] <[Mod]nosajr> but when tempers flare
[23:16:26] <[Mod]nosajr> and emotions escalate
[23:16:33] <[Mod]nosajr> people tend to disregard those things
[23:16:35] <sasquatch> again hats the responsibility of the monarchs
[23:16:40] <[Abs]Li> when tempers flare get a neutral group to try and mediate
[23:16:52] <[Abs]Li> atm, it's one side feels they've been wronged
[23:16:55] <[Mod]trooneh> That moderate group could be a few people that are picked
[23:16:57] <[Mod]nosajr> so any consequences? or should it be up to KDs and alliances to handle situations like that?
[23:16:58] <[Abs]Li> they do something else to get back at that part
[23:17:00] <[Mod]trooneh> By a vote or something
[23:17:00] <[Abs]Li> party
[23:17:04] <[Mod]trooneh> People everyone agrees would be moderate
[23:17:05] <[Abs]Li> and situation esculate
[23:17:09] <sasquatch> we could have an accademy double as a moderation board
[23:17:19] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Do you want to set up something like the United Nations?
[23:17:24] <[Abs]Li> but we can't outline all the possibilities that will happen
[23:17:27] <[Ind]Cheszedar> As your "third group?"
[23:17:29] <sasquatch> i have np with that
[23:17:35] <[Mod]trooneh> Not the United Nations - that's against war in theory
[23:17:44] <[Mod]trooneh> However, some place that keeps wars fair and helps mediate disputes
[23:17:46] <[Mod]trooneh> That get too far
[23:17:47] <[Abs]Li> another thing people have to realize
[23:17:48] <zapanap> frankly
[23:17:50] <[Mod]trooneh> That could be helpful in some way
[23:17:50] <[Abs]Li> this is a war game
[23:17:51] <[NA]Ulrick> maybe you need a running council
[23:17:52] <[Ind]Cheszedar> As experience tells us, such an entity would need military strength to enforce these "rules"
[23:17:58] <[NA]Ulrick> thats the only way to police this
[23:17:59] <[Abs]Li> conflicts are suppose to happen too
[23:18:04] <zapanap> i don't think i would be willing to have people that aren't in my kingdom/alliance/that i haven't asked trying to mediate in my conflicts.
[23:18:07] <[NA]Ulrick> one member from all alliances join up to one site
[23:18:13] <[Abs]Li> it's easy to make a list of rules and in that way, kill the game
[23:18:24] <ircleuser> Greetings
[23:18:30] <[Abs]Li> agreed with zapa
[23:18:33] <sasquatch> greets
[23:18:43] <zapanap> if i feel that i've been double hostiled, chances are that i have been, and chances are i'll get them back in a similar manner.  if you have ex come telling me that what i'm doing is wrong
[23:18:56] <zapanap> chances are i'd tell them to fuck off because they're not involved in the conflict between me and beauty
[23:19:01] <[Abs]Li> not a lot of ppl are willing to leave their kingdom in the hands of a 3rd party to decide over
[23:19:03] <zapanap> names not relevant, ofc
[23:19:09] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Ah, but what is right and what is wrong is entirely determined by what the majority believes
[23:19:13] <[Ind]Cheszedar> And Mehul, of course
[23:19:25] <[Abs]Li> and if they dislike the resolution, they prob won't abide by it
[23:19:32] <[Ind]Cheszedar> The only way to know for sure if something is right or wrong is to ask a large number of people and see what their responses
[23:19:51] <[Abs]Li> a governing body may create as just another set of problems
[23:19:52] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Hmm. I'm sorry but I believe everyone here knows the difference
[23:20:06] <sasquatch> we had 23 alliances here at my last count 
[23:20:16] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> and agreed Li, it would make things very complicated
[23:20:23] <ircleuser> Greetings...Vice President of UC signing in 
[23:20:24] <sasquatch>  1 reap from each in a permanent body?
[23:20:25] <zapanap> there is some grey area in hostiles, whiterabbit -- the issue is where that gray area lies differs with the type of kingdom you're dealing with
[23:20:33] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> we are not even taking in account the numerous hidden alliances
[23:20:43] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> like mine was for 10 ages
[23:20:48] <zapanap> if we're talking about the bottom kd on the server, chances are 3 hits is a wave and hostile
[23:20:52] <[Ind]Cheszedar> What exactly do alliances have to do with double declares?
[23:20:58] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Why are they being mentioned?
[23:21:04] <zapanap> if we're talking about the top kingdom, chances are 7 hits isn't a wave
[23:21:08] <[Ind]Cheszedar> You want alliances to enforce these double hostile rules?
[23:21:10] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> actually I rarely see alliances double declare
[23:21:23] <[Mod]trooneh> zapanap: then we can state what a wave is for a type of KD
[23:21:28] <[Ind]Cheszedar> That depends WhiteRabbit
[23:21:31] <[TA]Thalius> the only rule universally agreed to which is clearly bs anyways is the one that says all 1 to 1 wars are fair which just plain defies logic or reason
[23:21:38] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Monkeys and eXodus both thought the other guy double declared
[23:21:41] <[Mod]trooneh> A top alliance KD, for example, 15-19 hits
[23:21:41] <ircleuser> Its enos here ;)
[23:21:45] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> yeah Ches I know, some alliances detag to double
[23:21:51] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> or play follow up
[23:21:53] <zapanap> and how do you determine which category a kingdom falls in?
[23:21:55] <zapanap> ah see
[23:22:03] <zapanap> sometimes we would wave a kingdom without making 15-19 hits
[23:22:03] <zapanap> hell
[23:22:10] <zapanap> sometimes we wouldn't even have 15 attackers in serenity.
[23:22:25] <[Mod]trooneh> Or 75% of attackers making a hit in a single hour
[23:22:26] <[Mod]trooneh> Or more
[23:22:32] <[Mod]trooneh> Is the definition fo a wave
[23:22:55] <zapanap> what if we start hitting at the end of the 12th and most -- but not 75% -- lie in the 13th?
[23:22:56] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> my KD was recently in a 5 day period was waved by three different HaJ KDs, not that we have a grievance here, but that kind of thing is just as damaging as double hostiles and I believe should be addressed with doubles
[23:23:07] <[Mod]nosajr> most top alliances and KDs know what they should and shouldn't be doing, but they will do it anyway, if they can get away with it. however, then it's up to their respective KDs and alliances to work things out. if that becomes status quo...then the top will operate just like the way it has been for a while now. but the mid-level or bottom folks get the tar kicked out of them.
[23:23:45] <[SF]Tyreal> agree with that
[23:23:52] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Part of the problem is that utopians don't see these so called double declares or bottomfeeds
[23:23:59] <sasquatch> i have to get ready and goto work  ty all for your participatition  remember this canm be a start  even iff nothing universal will come at least we allrecognise something is needed and keeping that in mind may change our though processes 
[23:24:01] <[Ind]Cheszedar> You could go a long way by making information more available
[23:24:13] <[Ind]Cheszedar> For example, if each kd were to post their papers to some common site
[23:24:21] <[Lotus]Peppie> hey thats a nice topic
[23:24:30] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> well a simple thing is showing a little respect
[23:24:36] <[Ind]Cheszedar> If the majority of utopians can see "cowardly" actions people will stop doing them
[23:24:43] <[Lotus]Peppie> does everyone here agree that utopia needs some code of honour people ought to adhere to?
[23:24:44] <sasquatch> nice idea 
[23:24:47] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Unless they don't care, but that's a different story
[23:24:55] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> do you have to keep waving a KD when they send your KD a massmail saying please backoff we are double or triple hostiled
[23:25:13] <zapanap> ehh, posting your papers somewhere isn't really a good idea
[23:25:14] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> the alliances can easily show some class and find a new target
[23:25:16] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Ah, but people lie in this game
[23:25:17] <zapanap> the thing is
[23:25:21] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> agreed zapa
[23:25:23] <zapanap> your CE can be a very strategic thing
[23:25:30] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Sure it can
[23:25:34] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Ches the lie can be checked out with one ce
[23:25:35] <[Ind]Cheszedar> dragon starting, for example
[23:25:36] <zapanap> if i'm the #5 player, i don't want the #1 to know i've sent out if he can break me.
[23:25:45] <zapanap> and while chances are he'll find out eventually
[23:25:49] <[Ind]Cheszedar> But the information is already freely available
[23:25:51] <zapanap> the longest i can delay that the best ;p
[23:25:52] <zapanap> sure
[23:25:54] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> sneaky tactics are the discussion though Ches
[23:25:57] <zapanap> but he has to CE one of the two parties
[23:26:02] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> are not the
[23:26:03] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> sorry
[23:26:06] <zapanap> not log on to a neutral website and not spend any mana
[23:26:06] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Sneaky tactics be fucked, CE's don't lie
[23:26:07] <zapanap> to see it
[23:26:16] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I don't listen to what other people tell me if I don't know them, I get a CE
[23:26:17] <zapanap> i can forge a CE, if you'd like.
[23:26:23] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> look if my KD is triple hostile I'll give you 5 provinces easy to CE
[23:26:26] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Reporters can get CE's as well
[23:26:30] <[Ind]Cheszedar> They won't forge them
[23:26:35] <[Ind]Cheszedar> You'd need more reporters though
[23:26:45] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Also, these are all double-checkable
[23:27:10] <[Ind]Cheszedar> It would take the element of surprise out of the game
[23:27:19] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> but I think it isn't too much to ask for alliances to take a look at this isse
[23:27:19] <[Ind]Cheszedar> The question is if that's worth it to combat "cowardly" tactics
[23:27:42] <[Eclipse]Selassie> Li made the best point, rules will ruin the game, but if kingdoms treat each other with respect, there is no need for these rules in the first place
[23:27:43] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I almost had my KD killed start of last age because we had a triple hostile and a KD of mostly 1st agers
[23:28:05] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Selassie, you cannot rely on goodwill to govern
[23:28:06] <[Eclipse]Selassie> but agreed, we could use getting new players more interested
[23:28:15] <[Eclipse]Selassie> brb 2 secs
[23:28:16] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> If a KD messages an alliance KD and says, we are double can't you run a CE and find out for yourself?
[23:28:21] <[Mod]nosajr> [Eclipse]Selassie ok, and I agree with [Abs]Li but how do you get people to do that?
[23:28:24] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> we all want people to get better don't we?
[23:28:35] <zapanap> you can't rely on rules, either
[23:28:37] <[Ind]Cheszedar> The onus must always be on the agressor to make sure his target isn't already being hit
[23:28:38] <[BoD]Keenan1> on the subject of "cowardly tactics, ive noticed a few top kingdoms doing this, they make an acc in a kingdom, use that account to get the knigdom hostile with thiers, then declare war
[23:28:44] <[Mod]nosajr> nope, can't rely on rules either zapanap
[23:29:03] <[CSB]Dri> I have a suggestion, since there is no final conclussion to the active hostile definition (CEs, War declarations, WAR in name, WAR in banner), I think more organisation would help and by more organisation I mean go from bottom to top, alliance leaders have a meeting with their monarchs and decide on their opinions, then alliance leaders have a meeting (Private) and express their opinions, advantages and disadvantages of their final concl
[23:29:05] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Keenan makes a point I wish to address later
[23:29:40] <[Ind]Cheszedar> So if we wish to stop double hostiles
[23:29:46] <[Ind]Cheszedar> And cannot trust self-policing
[23:29:51] <[Ind]Cheszedar> What is the best way to do so?
[23:29:55] * [Mod]ShadowV is now known as ShadowV
[23:29:56] <zapanap> eh keenan, i doubt people make an account in a kingdom to do that
[23:30:00] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Any governing body that steps in will not be impartial
[23:30:09] <[Ind]Cheszedar> zapanap, it's more common than you think :(
[23:30:22] <[BoD]Keenan1> indeed, its alot mreo common than you think
[23:30:23] <EnosUC> Greetings
[23:30:24] <[Ind]Cheszedar> What ghetto wars a kd #4 for honor with 6 warwins by week 7?
[23:30:33] <[BoD]Keenan1> in general its the honor hunting kingdoms who do this
[23:30:41] <zapanap> a ghetto that gets fucked into it
[23:30:43] <EnosUC> Whats the subject now?
[23:30:48] <zapanap> because they're in aggressive and some noob logs in and retals a suicide on them
[23:31:00] <[Ind]Cheszedar> The noob being a player in that high honor kingdom
[23:31:06] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Who then releases everything in war
[23:31:09] <[Ind]Cheszedar> And deletes after it
[23:31:18] <[Ind]Cheszedar> We're straying from the topic, anyways
[23:31:32] <EnosUC> Whats the topic atm?
[23:31:34] <[BoD]Keenan1> sorry i missed what tiopic we are on
[23:31:44] <[Ind]Cheszedar> If you want to stop cowardly actions (including double hostiles), my proposal is that more information on kd activites be available
[23:31:53] <[NoX]Dave> I think those that are good targets will be grabbed aslong as they remain good targets ;)
[23:31:59] <[Ind]Cheszedar> That, at least, is how the US polices itself
[23:32:11] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I don't know if it's all that great, but it's what I'm familiar with
[23:32:28] <EnosUC> I think this whole channel needs some moderator to organize it...this is quite crazy :p
[23:32:31] <[Abs]Li> or you could just let me make all the decisions
[23:32:41] <[Abs]Li> =)
[23:32:41] <[Mod]nosajr> well teh US actively beats the tar out of others. sKD ftw ;p
[23:32:53] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Fucking crosslogging Americans
[23:33:44] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> lol at Ches
[23:33:50] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> noone else crosslogs?
[23:33:56] <[Ind]Cheszedar> They're better at it
[23:33:59] <[Ind]Cheszedar> :)
[23:34:02] <zapanap> romanians
[23:34:03] <zapanap> :p
[23:34:08] <[Lotus]Peppie> eeek
[23:34:09] <[Ind]Cheszedar> shhhh, enough
[23:34:09] <[Mod]nosajr> well, we've pretty much agreed on the fact that there needs to be mutual respect among KDs and alliances, but that's still up to the "honor system" which is difficult to enforce. rules can't be totally enforced either. but what would you suggest would help KDs and alliances get along a BIT better?
[23:34:12] <[Ind]Cheszedar> less fratzia references 
[23:34:13] <zapanap> i think dave is right, though
[23:34:13] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> wow I know some Aussies and Ros that are pretty good at it too
[23:34:23] <zapanap> people are going to get hit if they are good targets
[23:34:25] <zapanap> that's the way things go
[23:34:26] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Well, I have suggested my piece
[23:34:29] <[Ind]Cheszedar> What say others?
[23:34:29] <zapanap> want to know how to not be a good target?
[23:34:31] <[CSB]Dri> This is going racist
[23:34:31] <zapanap> Train offense.
[23:34:40] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> no Dri it's a joke
[23:34:47] <[Mod]nosajr> I do not want any single groups targeted negatively
[23:34:48] <[Lotus]Peppie> nosajr, what would help is a general code of conduct everyone could agree on
[23:34:54] <[CSB]Dri> Aight :)
[23:34:56] <[Mod]nosajr> no KD, no ethnic group, period.
[23:34:58] <[Lotus]Peppie> the problem is, no-one is ever going to agree on anything
[23:35:03] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> yeah I agree with Peppie
[23:35:15] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Negative attitude won't help
[23:35:24] <[eX]DrAlex> then why keep up with it
[23:35:26] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> on the first part but not the agreeing
[23:35:31] <[Lotus]Peppie> also, i think that top alliances shouldnt be so prominent in this discussion
[23:35:33] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I think we can agree to some basic things
[23:35:35] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Realism is all well ang good, this isn't the place for it however
[23:35:46] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Now will someone please suggest an alternative way to stop double hostiles?
[23:35:52] <[Lotus]Peppie> if i had thought theyd be the center of attention (like they are now) then id have prepared a speech on crosslogging and scripting
[23:35:57] <[Ind]Cheszedar> We can brainstorm ideas now and pick them apart later
[23:36:00] <[BoD]Keenan1> yes i think an agreement could be reached, but nothing complex, just a few simple rules
[23:36:04] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> lol @ Peppie
[23:37:15] <[Abs]Li> oh, another notes
[23:37:18] <[Abs]Li> NAPs
[23:37:44] <[Abs]Li> i've seen recently some issues of broken NAPs and the alliance pretty much shrugs their shoulders and say "not our problem"
[23:37:46] <[Ind]Cheszedar> There isn't any progress being made
[23:38:01] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Are you telling me none of you thought of a way to enforce any hostile rules this summit reaches?
[23:38:08] <[Abs]Li> its very much of a kingdom-kingdom issue but still, it does reflect on the amount of trust between groups
[23:38:15] <[Ind]Cheszedar> This is an endless series of digressions
[23:38:16] <[eX]Elrond> if the naps are between alliances its not an alliance issue
[23:38:21] <[eX]Elrond> kingdoms*
[23:38:41] <[Abs]Li> but how can alliances make agreement and be expected to hold to them?
[23:38:55] <[Ind]Cheszedar> unbelievable
[23:38:56] <[Abs]Li> if an alliance themself is saying they can do nothing about broken agreements
[23:39:01] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> well suspending the offending KD would be a start
[23:39:24] <[eX]Elrond> if you make an agreement with an entire alliance the alliance will make sure its followed. At least we would
[23:39:28] <[Abs]Li> it also reflects on how other kingdoms treat the nap breaker
[23:39:34] <[Abs]Li> ie. see force
[23:39:40] <[Abs]Li> they broke a nap with serenity 4 ages ago
[23:39:53] <[]funky> :)
[23:39:58] <[Abs]Li> and the backlash was very few kds that napped them in the past would nap them anymore
[23:40:12] <[Abs]Li> likewise the group that they broke it on, wants blood
[23:40:25] <[eX]Elrond> ur point being?
[23:40:27] <[]funky> can attest to li's comment
[23:40:32] <[Abs]Li> creating a situation where force is gonna get killed or exodus can help force and conflicts increase
[23:40:34] <[Abs]Li> or say GA
[23:40:40] <[Abs]Li> ga broke a nap with wrath
[23:40:43] <[eX]Elrond> ic
[23:40:51] <[Abs]Li> that increased animosity toward ga greatly
[23:41:02] <[Eclipse]Selassie> whoever asked me how we would impose respect, it sounds daft, but with powerplaying of course
[23:41:11] <[eX]Elrond> apparently our kingdoms are notorious nap breakers :)
[23:41:11] <[Eclipse]Selassie> to those who don't fall in line
[23:41:18] <[Eclipse]Selassie> it is something the big alliances need to unite on
[23:41:23] <[Abs]Li> and decreased how much abs was willing to deal with exodus
[23:41:30] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> simple solution if your KD breaks a NAP kick them out and blackball them
[23:41:43] <[Ind]Cheszedar> In the real world, the only penalty to breaking an agreement is that your credibility is shot
[23:41:44] <[eX]Elrond> well there are other things behind that as well Li
[23:41:46] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> let them fend for themselves
[23:41:47] <[Abs]Li> these are simple things that goes a long way in establishing alliance on alliance respect
[23:41:51] <[AoD]StargateBabe> Sorry to interupt...will there be a summary on this?
[23:41:56] <[eX]Elrond> do we wanna turn this into abs and ex again?
[23:42:03] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> we could hope StargateBabe
[23:42:08] <[Eclipse]Selassie> if you like elrond
[23:42:10] <[Mod]nosajr> i hope so ;p
[23:42:13] <zapanap> no, there can also be legal consequences, ches ;p
[23:42:13] <[Eclipse]halla> yes yes :P
[23:42:13] <[Mod]nosajr> my brain has gone to mush
[23:42:16] <[Abs]Li> the summary on this would be can we make a real effort to try and get kds to abide by agreements they make?
[23:42:31] <[Abs]Li> rather than saying "not my business?"
[23:42:31] <[eX]Dax> actually Elrond we should, see if we can agree on things with absalom
[23:42:49] <[eX]Elrond> if a kd dont keep agreements it will blow up in thier face
[23:42:54] <[Eclipse]Selassie> i think alliances need to be more honourble, too many alliances are happy to pounce on things
[23:43:12] <[Eclipse]Selassie> GG got what was coming to them after they broke our CF agreements
[23:43:16] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I guess the booting from the Alliance and alliance blackballing is too strong an action?
[23:43:21] <[BoD]Keenan1> indeed, AK for one
[23:43:23] <[Eclipse]Selassie> they got raped by whoever warred them
[23:43:28] <[Eclipse]Selassie> sorry, that was offtopic
[23:43:28] <[eX]DrAlex> What is being discuessed?
[23:43:41] <[eX]Elrond> nothing really alex
[23:43:44] <[BoD]Keenan1> i dont know we need some order in here if this is gonna get anywhere
[23:43:52] <[eX]Elrond> part from rants about ex kds breaking deals
[23:43:53] <[eX]DrAlex> This meeting is turning into propaganda and people arguing their side of the story on stuff which has nothing to do with the premise of this meeting
[23:43:53] <zapanap> yes and no, elrond
[23:43:56] <[Mod]nosajr> NAPs and agreements, honorably holding onto them and the consequences...
[23:44:00] <zapanap> serenity broke an agreement with insomnia, once upon a time
[23:44:02] <zapanap> and no one cared
[23:44:11] <[eX]DrAlex> I think that NAP's are a kd vs kd thing
[23:44:13] <[Abs]Li> but you have to say it really reall sucks ass
[23:44:15] <[Mod]nosajr> I DO NOT WANT SINGLE KDS OR GROUPS TARGETED. 
[23:44:17] <[eX]DrAlex> unless its an alliance NAP
[23:44:22] <zapanap> uhm
[23:44:22] <zapanap> nos
[23:44:28] <zapanap> talking about my kingdom doing bad things isn't targetting us
[23:44:29] <zapanap> :)
[23:44:33] <[Abs]Li> how can you have an alliance naps if the individual kds will break it dralex?
[23:44:40] <[eX]Elrond> they dont
[23:44:47] <[eX]Elrond> come on Li
[23:45:02] <[eX]Elrond> u really think alliancewide naps would be broken?
[23:45:05] <[eX]DrAlex> If there is an alliance NAP, I don't see kds from those 2 napped alliances going after each other.
[23:45:06] <[Mod]nosajr> elrond, humor me.. so let's say they do break things, then what?
[23:45:13] <[eX]Dax> Mod's
[23:45:24] <[eX]Dax> would there be time to throw in a raw draft
[23:45:28] <[eX]Dax> of a proposal
[23:45:43] <[Abs]Li> i don't see how you can say that if kd on kd naps aren't expected to stick
[23:45:44] <[eX]Dax> by absalom towards exodus, regarding on how to deal with hostiles and such
[23:45:57] <[eX]Dax> that might be better then this bickering about who did what wrong in the past
[23:46:10] <[Mod]nosajr> i can handle that and moderate that if you'd like
[23:46:16] <[Mod]nosajr> since I belong to neither alliance
[23:46:16] <[eX]DrAlex> please moderate
[23:46:20] <[eX]DrAlex> start banning off topic
[23:46:24] <[eX]DrAlex> lol
[23:46:26] <[Abs]Li> not saying so much about wrongs in the past dax as much as, we need to get back to the point where we can trust each other and trust what the other side says
[23:46:29] <[Abs]Chai> Well, what you call "bickering" about "who did what", I think Li would argue is a prime example of how the discreditable actions of one kingdom in an alliance can easily lead to the mistrust of all.
[23:46:37] <[Abs]Li> that starts with kingdoms, not alliances
[23:46:44] <[eX]DrAlex> and they continue....
[23:46:44] <[Abs]Li> an alliance is basically a group of kingdoms
[23:46:50] <[Abs]Chai> For better or worse, when one kingdom in an organization proves its word to be worth nothing, the entire alliance's word diminishes.
[23:47:04] <[eX]Elrond> ahh didnt see you chai :) hi
[23:47:12] <[Mod]nosajr> ok chai, li... your points are given...
[23:47:18] <[eX]Dax> yeah well we have an equal list of absalom things no doubt but that wont help at this point
[23:47:22] <[]funky> moving along please :)
[23:47:30] <[eX]Dax> Li Chai would absalom object to the proposal by carsten being discussed here
[23:47:31] <[eX]Elrond> that we indee do dax :)
[23:47:34] <zapanap> i just want to state for the record, that funky is a noob.
[23:47:38] <[Mod]nosajr> so we all know that the word of an alliance gets tarnished by the actions of a KD...so what can be done about it?
[23:47:40] <[Abs]Li> but you can trust any agreements we make
[23:47:46] <[]funky> zapa <3
[23:47:49] <[Lotus]Peppie> regrettably, when scrolling up its mostly [eX], [Abs], zauper, the mods or ches :/
[23:47:50] <[BoD]Keenan1> yeah, please eX and abs, sort your problems elsewhere, this is becomnig an eX/abs show
[23:48:03] <[Ind]Cheszedar> ches ftw
[23:48:07] <[eX]Dax> not really [BoD]Keenan1
[23:48:10] <[Mod]nosajr> hold on
[23:48:12] <[Mod]nosajr> DAMNIT 
[23:48:15] <[Mod]nosajr> FFS
[23:48:15] <[Lotus]Peppie> are other people not interested in participating, or are they intimidated by the main spammers?
[23:48:18] <[Lotus]Peppie> sry.
[23:48:23] <[Ind]Cheszedar> nosajr, we never managed a consensus on even enforcement
[23:48:26] <[BoD]Keenan1> we need a topic and gotta stick to it to get anywhere
[23:48:32] * Piro is now known as [Mod]Piro
[23:48:36] <[Ind]Cheszedar> before mass ex/abs talks about Naps appeared
[23:48:48] <[Abs]Li> sorry, don't be intimidated by me.  I speak my mind, please speak yours.
[23:48:49] <[Ind]Cheszedar> and that's not even a definition of a hostile :)
[23:48:56] <zapanap> hm
[23:49:06] * [Ind]Striker073 yawns
[23:49:07] <zapanap> :X
[23:49:14] <[eX]Elrond> as long as the rest of you are silent we will take a lot of space
[23:49:17] <[Ind]Striker073> zap go play your druid =P
[23:49:23] <zapanap> i am striker
[23:49:24] <zapanap> :p
[23:49:48] <[Ind]Striker073> I see no reason why eX/abs can't dicuss their issues
[23:49:52] <[Ind]Striker073> I don't see anyone else talking about anything
[23:49:55] <[Mod]nosajr> chesz most KDs that are still talking know what a hostile is...
[23:50:03] <[CSB]Dri> byz
[23:50:12] <[CSB]Dri> Er, wrong key combination, excuse me.
[23:50:33] <[Ind]Cheszedar> sure, so how will they enforce double hostile rules without shafting independent kingdoms?
[23:50:50] <[Mod]nosajr> the issue here is trust and how to lose it or gain it. and what are the consequences from various alliances of NAPs are broken? 
[23:50:59] <[eX]Elrond> independant kds tend to adapt
[23:51:02] <[Ind]Cheszedar> ah, broken naps
[23:51:02] <[Mod]nosajr> so far I've only seen ex and abs talk about it, since they do have issues with each other. 
[23:51:11] <[Mod]nosajr> however, other alliances and KDs have that same issue as well
[23:51:14] <[eX]Elrond> hehe
[23:51:14] <[Ind]Cheszedar> True
[23:51:19] <[eX]Elrond> we have issues?
[23:51:20] <[Lotus]Peppie> lotus hasnt much experience with (broken) naps
[23:51:24] <[Abs]Li> agreed with nosajr
[23:51:27] <[BoD]Keenan1> yes i am waiting for a subject i can comment on :), cos the eX/abs thing nothnig to do with me
[23:51:48] <[Ind]Cheszedar> So, may we say the worst kind of broken NAP is one that has been sealed by ingame ceasefire agreement?
[23:52:01] <[Mod]nosajr> so if agreements are broken, and no need to point fingers, what can be done about it?
[23:52:02] <[eX]Elrond> no
[23:52:12] <[]funky> not really
[23:52:29] <[Ind]Cheszedar> From my point of view, the best way to prevent misunderstandings like crims and ms is to have the nap only count until after the ceasefires are accepted
[23:52:29] <[]funky> any agreed upon NAPshould be honoured
[23:52:43] <[eX]Elrond> yes
[23:52:44] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Sure, but the best way to show that both sides agreed for sure is in game CF
[23:52:50] <[Lotus]Peppie> excuse me if im blunt, but who the hell cares about NAPs breaking? this isnt a game event that has any relevance to most people in this channel i think
[23:53:03] <[eX]Elrond> I must agree with peppie
[23:53:05] <[Lotus]Peppie> and i feel that the topic doesnt need any community attention anyway
[23:53:12] <[eX]Elrond> even though I anjoy discussing this
[23:53:27] <[BoD]Keenan1> if naps are broken, then it would be the kingdoms problem to deal with it
[23:53:48] <[Mod]Piro> agreed, naps between kds are just that. 
[23:53:55] <[BoD]Keenan1> cos naps can be broken for many reasons
[23:54:09] <[eX]Elrond> some reasons are even valid
[23:54:17] <[Abs]Chai> and some are not.
[23:54:23] <[BoD]Keenan1> and youl always get 2 differant stories and get nowhere, so NaP's should be left for the knigdom to deal with
[23:54:25] <[eX]Elrond> some are defenatly not
[23:54:26] <[Lotus]Peppie> i dont really see NAPs, and the breaching of them as anything we need a Code of Conduct for or whatever
[23:55:00] <[Mod]nosajr> ok Peppie, and Keenan, then what would you like to discuss instead?
[23:55:28] <[Lotus]Peppie> i dont have any specific ideas but at least a topic that concerns most of us
[23:55:44] <[BoD]Keenan1> hmm, maybe aobut the subject i vbrought up earlier? of the creating an accoutn ni a knigdom and using it to get a war
[23:55:49] <[Eclipse]halla> there probably isnt really 1 topic that concerns everyone
[23:55:51] <zapanap> i'd like to discuss why my cat owns peppie's soul, why chai needs to have his eyes gouged out (with a fork), and crosslogging
[23:55:57] <[Lotus]Peppie> or we could think about how scripting screws ghettos, because theyre not getting any worthwhile players
[23:56:02] <[Eclipse]halla> some ppl are good and big, and some suck ass and are small and just complain about ppl bottomfeeding
[23:56:15] <[eX]DrAlex> I second what zauper said
[23:56:18] <[Lotus]Peppie> crosslogging once again is a thing that mostly concerns the upper tier of the game
[23:56:29] <[TBH]TKE> mod please check #access
[23:56:30] <[Mod]nosajr> Keenan, so you have any thoughts or suggestions? cause that isn't exactly preventable by game politics. that's backside game mechanics
[23:56:56] <[BoD]Keenan1> indeed, i actually have no ideas on how to solve this
[23:57:03] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Crosslogging only effects the upper tier?
[23:57:06] <[Lotus]Peppie> i have a vicious hatred towards crosslogging and could say many bad things about it but i dont feel we should discuss it here lest all the top KDs brawl over it again
[23:57:15] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> what about those KDs who stay small and crosslog against ghettos?
[23:57:22] <[Lotus]Peppie> besides, crosslogging talk is bound to turn offensive to people at some point or another
[23:57:28] <[Ind]Cheszedar> how in god's name would you even think of enforcing anticrosslogging rules?
[23:57:34] <[Mod]Piro> Its also hard to prove
[23:57:35] <[Mod]nosajr> you can't.
[23:57:36] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> it's impossible
[23:57:37] <[eX]DrAlex> [Lotus]Peppie: if there was some kind of solution, then I'd agree with you
[23:57:38] <[eX]Elrond> as much as I hate crossloging I dont see a point discussing it here
[23:57:40] <[Ind]Cheszedar> the discussion is useless until you can stop it
[23:57:42] <[Mod]nosajr> that's why I didn't make it a part of dicussion
[23:57:44] <[Mod]nosajr> discussion*
[23:57:48] <[Ind]Cheszedar> we can all hate on it as much as we want in private
[23:57:50] <[BoD]Keenan1> yes the honor hunting kingdoms, who use thier created provinces to get an easy war
[23:57:58] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Make a little doll, label it "crosslogger" and stick it with pins
[23:58:03] <[BoD]Keenan1> but i dont think that can be stopped
[23:58:07] <[eX]Elrond> nop
[23:58:11] <[Ind]Cheszedar> But you can't enforce anything unless you want a kingdom's war channel to be open
[23:58:18] <[Ind]Cheszedar> And even then you can easily get around that
[23:58:19] <[BoD]Keenan1> tho i have an idea
[23:58:32] <[Ind]Cheszedar> shoot, keenan1
[23:58:46] <[BoD]Keenan1> keep an eye on the top honor knigdoms, they seem to be using this tactic to egt an easy war
[23:58:46] <[HaJ]King_Shadow> Xlogging.. scripting.. all such things would have to be an across the board gentlemans agreement to stop.. 
[23:59:07] <[BoD]Keenan1> it makes it unfair for the otehr honor kd's who fighting hard wars
[23:59:39] <[Eclipse]halla> anyone actually think xloggers and scripters are going to just stop?
[23:59:41] <[eX]Dax> you cant proove it and that is the problem, mehul and blake have trouble finding it, all you can do is trust a kd's honourable word if that is worth something
[23:59:46] <[Mod]Piro> Discussing crosslogging really achieves nothing as it can't really be proved, or any rules enforced.
[23:59:47] <[Eclipse]halla> mefool will delete ppl so ppl will still script
[23:59:54] <[eX]DrAlex> next topic?
Session Time: Mon Mar 20 00:00:00 2006
[00:00:02] <[TA]Thalius> it is hard when you say you can trade but not crosslog
[00:00:02] <[eX]Elrond> I am a little curious on what was adressed during the talk on waves and active hostiles?
[00:00:12] <[BoD]Keenan1> , possibly have a group who will keep an eye on those knigdoms and then sort it out like take them down a few pegs, itl teach them to play fair, for fear of their knigdom
[00:00:15] <[Ind]Cheszedar> The only way to combat this problem you discuss keenan, is to find it in the first place and expose it to the community
[00:00:18] <[TA]Thalius> some slill set
[00:00:19] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> what about alliance interference in KD politics
[00:00:24] <[Ind]Cheszedar> That means 24/7 CE's
[00:00:29] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> or threatening players to give up provinces
[00:00:37] <[Ind]Cheszedar> and a lot of cballs on these "provinces" that retaliate
[00:00:39] <[Mod]Piro> Impossible
[00:00:39] <[Lotus]Peppie> alliance bullying?
[00:00:47] <[TA]Thalius> WR, like to hear our policy on kd politics?
[00:00:58] <[eX]Elrond> Id like to complain on alliance byllying 
[00:01:03] <[BoD]Keenan1> not quite, one ce per day would do, and only those top honor kd's in war would be looked at
[00:01:03] <[Mod]Piro> Sure Thalius
[00:01:07] <[Lotus]Peppie> i think thats related to the topic of "forces that ruin the game for nubs"
[00:01:09] <[TA]Thalius> let's take it pm most don't want to hear it
[00:01:10] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I know TA's policies very well Thalius but post for the people here
[00:01:16] <[Lotus]Peppie> which we already unfruitfully discussed :/
[00:01:36] <[TA]Thalius> Peppie, do you think it is better to rid the game of us nubs?
[00:01:37] <[Ind]Cheszedar> That's what I suggested earlier =x
[00:01:55] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Query, why was Zauper devoiced?
[00:02:01] <[BoD]Keenan1> spamming
[00:02:13] <[TA]Thalius> yes Z-Man has an important voice
[00:02:26] <[TA]Thalius> please voice him
[00:02:28] <[eX]Elrond> what are we actualy talking about now?
[00:02:38] <[TA]Thalius> when he talks I listen
[00:02:41] <[Mod]Piro> as you wish
[00:02:45] <[Lotus]Peppie> eh
[00:02:46] <[Mod]Piro> Lets discuss alliance bullying
[00:02:51] <[Lotus]Peppie> i think nubs are the future
[00:02:58] <[Mod]Piro> What do you consider it to be?
[00:02:59] <[Lotus]Peppie> ive been avidly training them in genesis
[00:03:03] <[TA]Thalius> what do you mean precisely Piro
[00:03:09] <[TBH]TKE> prio woud you please check #access
[00:03:18] <[Mod]Piro> oi
[00:03:56] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> ok Alliance bullying, example :  A KD has a player who won't play with the KD and tries to remove him, only for that player to bring in his alliance to rape the entire KD he is in
[00:04:00] <[BoD]Keenan1> indeed, i personally have trained many utopia player (including ebiltown who finished #4 nw on gen the age after playngi with me), there are many guys who enjoy the game, but quit cos no1 will give them the time of day to teach them, and a good player lost
[00:04:22] <[BoD]Keenan1> i propose a group of active players setup some sort of thing where noobs come and ask for trainign
[00:04:28] <[Abs]Li> does that happen whiterabbit?
[00:04:31] <[Lotus]Peppie> wow [BsH]WhiteRabbit
[00:04:42] <[Lotus]Peppie> that sounds like a lower tier alliance issue
[00:04:44] <[Abs]Li> with most alliances that is resolved by approaching the alliance
[00:04:51] <[Mod]Piro> I'd like to see something like that keenan included with a guide
[00:04:54] <[Lotus]Peppie> i think most talkers here dont have experience with that
[00:04:56] <[Mod]Piro> Like what trevor has setup
[00:05:04] <[eX]Elrond> well hard for us kd based alliances to talk about thay whiterabbit
[00:05:24] <[TA]Thalius> the problem with that training is it assumes everyone plays the game for the same reasons so those policies are the best
[00:05:24] <[BoD]Keenan1> inde3d, i would gladly put myself up for this post, aslong as there is support with me, so they good guys can teach the not so good 
[00:05:26] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> actually it was HaLL involved in this issue
[00:05:43] <[eX]Elrond> the evul HaLL
[00:05:48] <[HaLL]Stoffer> hey
[00:06:17] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> but Peppie is right for the most part, it seems only the 'non-elite' alliances do this kind of thing
[00:06:18] <[Abs]Li> go to the alliance that hates them the most and offer to join them?
[00:06:29] <[TBH]TKE> Mod: plese put V on [TBH]Ladystar
[00:06:36] <[NI]Duck> Is it lack of training or to much abuse that scares the new players?
[00:06:38] <[Lotus]Peppie> alliances that support having single provs around the server suck anyway
[00:06:46] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> too much abuse
[00:06:51] <[BoD]Keenan1> well i recon a mix of both
[00:06:52] <[Lotus]Peppie> because you basically put KDs and players in the 'split loyalties' position
[00:06:53] <[Abs]Li> or lack of interest
[00:06:59] <[Abs]Li> most ppl have a short attention span
[00:07:00] <[NI]Duck> cause if a new player stays long enough, he will learn either way, by itself or by alliances who teach him
[00:07:03] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> we train every player that comes into our KD, we get raped by one elite KD and we lose 3
[00:07:08] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Let's pretend I am a new player
[00:07:11] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I join this game
[00:07:12] <[NI]Duck> that's what i mean whiterappit
[00:07:13] <[Lotus]Peppie> pretend?
[00:07:13] <[Lotus]Peppie> :P
[00:07:16] <[Ind]Cheszedar> assuming a friend told me about it
[00:07:17] <[Lotus]Peppie> (sorry, too easy)
[00:07:21] <[Abs]Li> they really get into something for a week, then find a new game and move on
[00:07:23] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> wait can't do that, people come to the game with different desires
[00:07:24] <[BoD]Keenan1> alot do lack intrest, but there are many who want to learn and be active, and no1 to teach so they dont stay
[00:07:28] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> some come to just play and have fun
[00:07:28] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I'm playing, ignoring random comments from peppie nub :P
[00:07:29] <[HaLL]Stoffer> the reason utopia is stagnating and dont getting new players, is because of the word n00b
[00:07:37] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I land in a ghetto
[00:07:37] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> some don't want to commit their life to the game
[00:07:42] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> wrong Stoffer
[00:07:44] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I'm sort of competitive
[00:07:49] <[Ind]Cheszedar> So of course I want to grow
[00:07:54] <[Ind]Cheszedar> since my kd isn't worth shit
[00:07:59] <[Ind]Cheszedar> and if it is they'll kick me asap
[00:08:04] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> they wouldn't be n00bs if people didn't claim they suicided in a war so they could break war terms
[00:08:09] <[NI]Duck> if you like a game, you will keep your interest. if the game disapoints you, you leave
[00:08:10] <[eX]Elrond> u will be taken down by hunters from better kds
[00:08:12] <[Abs]Li> agreed some with stoffer though, the game is not very kind to newer ppl
[00:08:20] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Then I discover that everytime I pass 2k acres I get hit by people 130% my size
[00:08:21] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> and then rape the province of a first ager who is doing his best
[00:08:28] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I think that might be what makes new players leave
[00:08:32] <[HaLL]Stoffer> we scare new players off because we dont want to spend time teaching them 
[00:08:33] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> yeah Ches that's all common
[00:08:41] <[HaLL]Stoffer> so we make fun of them and kill them off
[00:08:48] <[Ind]Cheszedar> new players DON'T LAND in top kingdoms
[00:08:54] <[Ind]Cheszedar> the vast majority land in ghettos
[00:08:56] <[BoD]Keenan1> indeed, new guys come, and its very bad, you see in forums cursing and abuse of some new players who never played befor, or are simply asked to delete or be killed
[00:08:57] <[eX]Elrond> actualy they do
[00:09:05] <[Mod]nosajr> it's rare but they do
[00:09:08] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Almost none
[00:09:11] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Stoffer maybe you don't want to teach them, and it's your kind of behaviour that makes the rest look bad
[00:09:14] * Matty is now known as [Mod]Matty|Work
[00:09:18] <[eX]Elrond> new players land in top kds quite often
[00:09:20] <[Ind]Cheszedar> If you only focused on the 1% that get into top kingdoms
[00:09:25] <[eX]Elrond> not as often as ghettos but still
[00:09:26] <[Ind]Cheszedar> most of which have 25 provinces
[00:09:30] <[Ind]Cheszedar> that won't help
[00:09:33] <[HaLL]Stoffer> i dont recall saying i dont want to teach new people
[00:09:39] <[Ind]Striker073> there are a lot of top kds without 25 provinces
[00:09:40] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> not the point
[00:09:45] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> do you want the game to die?
[00:09:59] <[eX]Elrond> so what should we do?
[00:10:04] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> so why belittle someone because they are clueless?
[00:10:07] * [Mod]Matty|Work is now known as Matty
[00:10:13] <[NI]Duck> stop abusing, at all layers of alliance size
[00:10:15] * Matty is now known as [Mod]Matty|Work
[00:10:22] <[HaLL]Stoffer> i actually do , because its also a good way to recrute new people to teh alliance you are within, its people who has no priour relatiosn to alliances 
[00:10:26] <[BoD]Keenan1> im sure there a handful of you guys who agree with training of newer players, as trainign these players will make a new era of player for us and keep the game going, and eventually improve the overall quality of playing utopia
[00:10:38] <[Mod]Piro> So would there be interest in perhaps creating a easy to use site that could help new players to learn the game effectively?
[00:10:41] <[eX]Elrond> sure
[00:10:42] <[AoD]StargateBabe> I train mine when they enter my kingdom.
[00:10:47] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> so are you saying it was ok for HaLL to involve themselves in an interkd problems?
[00:10:50] <[eX]Elrond> but how many have the time to train?
[00:10:55] <[Ind]Cheszedar> wow can we stick to one topic?
[00:10:57] <[BoD]Keenan1> yes, thats is my idea piro
[00:10:57] <[eX]Dax> ...
[00:11:02] <[Ind]Striker073> blaming the top kds and alliances for the death of utopia is dumb
[00:11:07] <[Ind]Striker073> because it's simply untrue
[00:11:10] <[AoD]StargateBabe> What's the topic and I'll stay on topic.
[00:11:11] <[NI]Tamolin> most "n00b" trianing would still take place at KD level
[00:11:26] <[eX]Elrond> yes striker
[00:11:26] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> all noob training should take place in KDs
[00:11:30] <[HaLL]Stoffer> [BsH]WhiteRabbit you sond like you have a beef with HaLL and wants to create a discussion with us, i dont se the relevance here 
[00:11:32] <[Ind]Cheszedar> the topic is morphing, but the current one is how to keep utopia alive by getting new players to...stay
[00:11:38] <[Mod]Piro> agreed Tamolin
[00:11:39] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> no it has relevance
[00:11:41] <[BoD]Keenan1> tam....how many time have you seen a newbie joni the game and get the knida help he needs to survive in utopia?
[00:11:42] <[Mod]Piro> but we could help kds
[00:11:50] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> my topic was alliances interfering in interkd politics
[00:12:01] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I don't have a beef with anyone
[00:12:08] <[NI]Duck> keenan, every noob that lands in my kd
[00:12:38] <[NI]Duck> but then quits cause you have 3 hostiles on you and rape him cause he doesn't have his min dpa yet
[00:12:46] <zapanap> sounds like we need zea to be remade ;p
[00:12:55] <[BoD]Keenan1> yes, you train them, but theres alot of kingdoms who wont even think of putting the effort in, this would be for them so they still have a chance even tho in a bad kingdom who wont train
[00:12:56] <[NI]Duck> he's like, pfft, stupid game, let's quit it!
[00:13:10] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> the only reason I mentioned HaLL was because it was the most recent experience I had with an alliance interfering with a KD problem
[00:13:14] <[Mod]Piro> perhaps Zauper
[00:13:15] <[Lotus]Peppie> i have one thing to say though
[00:13:18] <[Mod]Piro> but zea failed for a raso
[00:13:20] <[TA]Thalius> Z-Man, you could use a new challenge, why not make Zea over again
[00:13:21] <[Mod]Piro> reason*
[00:13:25] <[Lotus]Peppie> HaLL profiles itself as an offensive alliance
[00:13:27] <zapanap> lol thalius
[00:13:33] <[TA]Thalius> what reaon Piro?
[00:13:52] <[eX]Elrond> playing utopia police as Zea did will never work
[00:13:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> in itself, i think offensive alliances (either by name or actions) bear the most responsibility in alienating/chasing away nubs
[00:13:57] <[Mod]Piro> loss of interest and lack of support
[00:13:58] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> so that makes it ok for them to nearly raze out an entire KD because the KD wanted a player out of their KD?
[00:14:06] <[HaLL]Stoffer> we are offensive, but we have changed a lot within the last couple of ages, both internally and how we play 
[00:14:31] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I know Stoffer, I'm not pointing a finger and saying your the only one doing it
[00:14:32] <[Lotus]Peppie> maybe so, but putting HaLL aside, the nature of the problem is still the same
[00:14:36] <[TA]Thalius> yes in the old days anyone in HaLL could name a target and post it in the forums
[00:14:43] <[Ind]Cheszedar> lawl
[00:14:51] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I'm trying to get people aware that it's this kind of issue that causes the game to lose playres
[00:14:54] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I remember fun encounters with HaJ targetfinders
[00:15:01] <[Ind]Cheszedar> We ketp getting 10 gc plunders on our T/Ms
[00:15:01] <[Lotus]Peppie> if youre in a ghetto, and your KD gets ransacked, and you get told it was because of an alliance this-or-that, your gameplay fun quickly drops
[00:15:01] <[Ind]Cheszedar> :P
[00:15:03] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> and I thought the goal of the summit was to make the game better
[00:15:21] <[Ind]Cheszedar> What we have is a slight problem
[00:15:25] <[NI]Duck> peppie - yes
[00:15:26] <[Ind]Cheszedar> You see, if you suck at the game you quit
[00:15:26] <[Lotus]Peppie> for most KDs that are almost past ghetto stage its usually "join an alliance or die"
[00:15:41] <[Ind]Cheszedar> And if you're good at the game, you perform well by raping the people who aren't
[00:15:51] <[Ind]Cheszedar> So if you want newbies to stay, you quit farming them for honor and acres
[00:15:54] <[Lotus]Peppie> cheszedar, that doesnt work on nublevel
[00:15:55] <[eX]Elrond> that is the idea of the game
[00:15:57] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I.e. play badly on purpose
[00:16:05] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Now who is going to do that?
[00:16:14] <[TA]Thalius> as a general rulke the rich do better and come to expect that the poor are there to serve them
[00:16:17] <[Lotus]Peppie> theres a difference between getting hit because your province sucks, and getting hit because some asshole alliance decides it can safely powerplay you
[00:16:32] <[TA]Thalius> true Pep
[00:16:33] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Peppie, majority if players quit because they can't accomplish anything
[00:16:39] <[Lotus]Peppie> possibly true
[00:16:50] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I don't think most quit because an alliance razes them all down
[00:16:51] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> point to Peppie
[00:16:52] <[NI]Duck> is it because they are idiots, or because we play with them
[00:16:59] <[Lotus]Peppie> but even so, isnt it best that we try to limit the reasons people leave as much as possible?
[00:17:01] <[Ind]Cheszedar> If the alliance is stupid enough to waste their time with a ghetto, so be it
[00:17:04] <[NI]Duck> every new player is an newb in the beginning
[00:17:05] <[Abs]Li> maybe ppl quit b/c they are bored?
[00:17:15] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> look I find that most people on the ghetto level don't mind getting hit because they suck
[00:17:22] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Boredom comes from being unable to accomplish anything IMO
[00:17:34] <[TA]Thalius> I have a monarch wanting to quit right now cause he is sick of getting the short end of the stick, and most people who do not have some success in a game seek a new game or try and change the one they are in
[00:17:35] <[Lotus]Peppie> if alliance abuse is A FACTOR at all in people's motivations, shouldnt we consider toning down aggressiveness for the sake of the future of this game?
[00:17:37] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> however they all take offense when it's because some alliance is powerplaying either their KD or their alliance
[00:17:46] <[Lotus]Peppie> *peoples motivations to leave
[00:17:56] <[Ind]Cheszedar> By the way, I have a 3rd hand piece of information from FightClub for you all
[00:17:59] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Take it as you will
[00:18:00] <[Mod]Piro> People also have attitude problems, they may quit if there province gets razed down. Even though its part of the game
[00:18:00] <[Ind]Cheszedar> [##:##] <[FC]bananabrain> <Page> "Uncle_Pagi from FC would like to offer refreshments to the members of the summit in the form of his delicious ball sweat" 
[00:18:15] <[Ind]Cheszedar> anyways, back to the topic
[00:18:21] <[NI]Duck> :S
[00:18:28] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Let's say that alliances cause people to quit
[00:18:33] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Because of powerplaying
[00:18:35] <[Lotus]Arbulus> i'm off, goodnight ppl
[00:18:36] <[Eclipse]Selassie> disagree
[00:18:37] <[BoD]Keenan1> yes but as always there is many reasons who newbies leave, due to bordem,fun drained by getting farmed, or just not undertsnading the game, you cant say they are all usless cos there is many reasons for leaving
[00:18:38] <[eX]Elrond> its the oposit
[00:18:45] <[Ind]Cheszedar> This is hypothetical
[00:18:46] <[eX]Elrond> alliances keep people playing
[00:18:49] <[OA]Stalin> shrugs alliances also cause some ppl to continue playing
[00:18:49] <[Ind]Cheszedar> I don't agree with it myself
[00:18:51] <[eX]Elrond> but sure
[00:18:54] <[TA]Thalius> razing downm is a power play it not desighed to get more respources it is designed to make sure the voctim wants to quit
[00:18:54] <[eX]Elrond> continue
[00:18:56] <[Ind]Cheszedar> Now, if they did
[00:18:58] <[Mod]Piro> I agree Elrond
[00:19:04] <[NI]Duck> elrond, not all players, the older players, yes, but not the newbs
[00:19:11] <[Ind]Cheszedar> In order to stop this, you would need to have all the alliances, together, stop powerplaying
[00:19:17] <[Mod]Piro> Depends on the alliance though
[00:19:21] <[Ind]Cheszedar> How exactly do you propose to do that and enforce it?
[00:19:26] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> ALL of my friends in real life quit for one reason.  ALLIANCES
[00:19:27] <[eX]Elrond> and what is powerplaying?
[00:19:30] <[Eclipse]Selassie> impossible, chesze
[00:19:31] <[TA]General_Red> unfair and mean behaviour is not reserved for alliances most a*holes i know are not in an alliance
[00:19:32] <zapanap> when you say alliance powerplaying, what do you mean?
[00:19:44] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Powerplaying is jumping a 4 million NW KD with a 6 million one
[00:19:44] <[Lotus]Peppie> oh god not that again
[00:19:49] <[HaLL]Stoffer> you all know how we cold stop allianceses from powerplaying :P
[00:19:54] <[TA]Thalius> only rules that get enforced by the big is those that help them got or stay big, just a fact of life
[00:19:54] <[eX]Elrond> no its not
[00:19:58] <[HaLL]Stoffer> SERVER SHUFFLE
[00:20:01] <[TA]General_Red> lol
[00:20:02] <[Mod]nosajr> HOLD ON AGAIN, STFU
[00:20:05] <[Eclipse]Selassie> shuffles wont work
[00:20:09] <[BoD]Keenan1> or a hidden bigger alliance jumping a smaller tagged one *coughs AK*
[00:20:15] <[Eclipse]Selassie> the best cheats will be back together again in no time
[00:20:27] <[Mod]nosajr> i told you no specific targetting
[00:20:36] <[Eclipse]Selassie> leaving those who cant cheat so well
[00:20:38] <[Eclipse]Selassie> to struggle
[00:20:40] <zapanap> so bottomfeeding = powerplaying?
[00:20:45] <[Eclipse]Selassie> hell no
[00:20:48] <[eX]Elrond> no its not
[00:21:05] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> bottomfeeding is a given, it happens
[00:21:06] <[Mod]nosajr> most Kds and alliances will agree that bottomfeeding, isn't powerplaying
[00:21:06] <[eX]Elrond> give the man back his v btw
[00:21:09] <[TA]Thalius> at least bottom feeding is to gain land or resources but razing somoen is what?
[00:21:29] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> but repeatedly waving a KD that you know can't fight you is a powerplay
[00:21:35] <[Lotus]Peppie> the main point here i think is big alliances with loads of KDs (10+ KDs) using their power too liberally and indiscriminately
[00:21:45] <[Eclipse]Selassie> im a little tired, who is he referring to when he says AK?
[00:21:55] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> AK is Jacos new alliance
[00:21:56] <[Lotus]Peppie> especially two ghetto alliances in an alliance war could be the cause of the woes of tens to hundreds of nubs
[00:21:56] <[HaLL]Stoffer> african korps
[00:21:59] <[Eclipse]Selassie> oh
[00:22:08] <[Eclipse]Selassie> african unite!
[00:22:15] <[Eclipse]Selassie> is Jaco african?
[00:22:29] <[Lotus]Peppie> now these wars dont concern the abs/ex/eclipse/nox/zauperish people here
[00:22:31] <zapanap> you're wrong about what powerplaying is
[00:22:31] <[HaLL]Stoffer> no its bases on the old german african korps who had rommel as leader
[00:22:34] <zapanap> powerplaying is one thing..
[00:22:43] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> There are all kinds of powerplaying
[00:22:46] <zapanap> when i hit you, you retal, and i kill you for retalling.  that's powerplaying.
[00:22:57] <[Eclipse]Selassie> agreed, zap
[00:22:58] <[TA]Thalius> his new anti alliance alliance his first target is BoD, I guess cause he figures he would lose against ABS, lol
[00:22:59] <[Lotus]Peppie> but they do concern the nubs, and without nubs this game has no future
[00:23:03] <zapanap> nothing else is powerplaying.
[00:23:03] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> what you elite players consider powerplaying and what us ghettos see as powerplaying are too different things
[00:23:21] <zapanap> no WR, what you described is farming.
[00:23:23] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> actually Thalius he target ReV too
[00:23:29] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> lol
[00:23:39] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> ok I call farming creating provinces just for that purpose
[00:23:44] <[BoD]Keenan1> yes that is true
[00:24:09] <[TA]Thalius> oh, well Jaco if you are against Alliance why don't you start at the top. not the bottom, oh I forgot Utopia is a game where you look for ways not to be challenged
[00:24:24] <[Lotus]Peppie> heres another approach, other than players abusing players directly
[00:24:33] <[Lotus]Peppie> farming and scripting
[00:24:36] <[TA]Thalius> ?
[00:24:59] <[TA]Thalius> how many big kds have zero scripted provinces?
[00:25:06] <[TA]Thalius> or non traded
[00:25:13] <[Lotus]Peppie> ghettos often suck because theres not enough people who care in them. That situation isnt helped if cheating alliances (or players) keep a massive amount of scripts/farms going
[00:25:18] <[Mod]Piro> there is no such thing as an anti alliance, an alliance is when a group of people band together. For any purpose. Thus an anti alliance is merely another alliance
[00:25:21] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Zap as I said, ghettos see powerplaying as something different then the elite alliances do
[00:25:29] <[eX]Elrond> quite a few have non scripted thalius
[00:25:29] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> and that makes our opinion no less valuable
[00:25:31] <[TA]Thalius> now I don't trade I have been in the same nub kd since round 4 but if I lost it I would trade back
[00:25:34] <[eX]Elrond> but non trade?
[00:25:36] <[eX]Elrond> nahh
[00:25:36] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> actually without us you don't have a game
[00:25:47] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> considering we are the majority and not the minority
[00:25:56] <[TA]Thalius> an example
[00:26:13] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I'm not so much here to speak on the behalf of my alliance as on the behalf of players
[00:26:19] <[Lotus]Peppie> from a trustworthy source i can say that utopia has about 19K people that are either multis, scripted or people staying for less than two weeks
[00:26:28] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> people who are not alliance affiliated, people in alliance KDs that get the shortend
[00:26:34] <[Lotus]Peppie> now thats half of WoL
[00:26:44] <[Lotus]Peppie> so it gives you a clue on how much cheating is going on
[00:26:46] <[TA]Thalius> when Henry Ford set up his factory he paid his workers an unheard of 5 dollars a day. When asked why he paid so much he said he wanted his employees to be able to afford his cars
[00:26:56] <[Lotus]Peppie> and its rather crippling
[00:27:04] <zapanap> i'm not saying that what you're talking about is right, whiterabbit
[00:27:11] <zapanap> i'm saying it's not powerplaying.. there's a distinction
[00:27:18] <zapanap> powerplaying is beating down on someone who tries to fight back
[00:27:26] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> lol
[00:27:29] <zapanap> or for fighting back
[00:27:33] <zapanap> rather
[00:27:41] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> ok it's not powerplaying when a KD fights an alliance KD and beats them
[00:27:44] <[BoD]Keenan1> exactly, we need to invest in the newbies, we need to train them so that utopia can live on
[00:27:54] <[Lotus]Peppie> dudes?
[00:27:56] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> and then two days later another KD from that alliance, one that crosslogs waves the same KD
[00:28:11] <[Lotus]Peppie> i just stated that one out of two provs in utopia is most likely a multi/scripted account
[00:28:14] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> that is a powerplay, no matter how you define it by the definition of the word
[00:28:20] <[Mod]nosajr> hrmm
[00:28:27] <[eX]DrAlex> I don't now about that peppie
[00:28:29] <[Lotus]Peppie> zauper can confirm this...
[00:28:34] <[HaLL]Stoffer> [Lotus]Peppie i agree
[00:28:38] <[TA]Thalius> now in the US they send all the manufacturing jobs to 3rd world nations so who will buty the cars when there are no jobs, you have to take a long view, just like with global warming
[00:28:40] <zapanap> that's alliance powerplaying, not kingdom powerplaying
[00:28:40] <[eX]DrAlex> Or maybe I live a more sheltered existance
[00:28:44] <zapanap> peppie is correct, by the way
[00:28:49] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> agreed Zauper
[00:28:51] <[BoD]Keenan1> brb guys gonig for a smoke(WR can you update me on what i missed when i get back?)
[00:29:11] <zapanap> there are about 18k unique IPs that play utopia... on accounts that have existed for more than 2 weeks
[00:29:22] <[NI]Duck> lol
[00:29:27] <[NI]Duck> where did you get that info?
[00:29:33] <[eX]DrAlex> Imagination
[00:29:43] <zapanap> from a swirve admin i know
[00:30:01] <[Mod]nosajr> but playing from behind a router in diff KDs is also possible, not necessarily multi-ing
[00:30:05] <[Mod]nosajr> but that's besides the point
[00:30:07] <[NI]Duck> okie, count in the uni's and you'll have a lot more "real" players
[00:30:15] <[NI]Duck> aka, non mulites
[00:30:18] <zapanap> er
[00:30:22] <[Lotus]Peppie> http://www.adbrite.com/mb/commerce/purchase_form.php?other_product_id=23279&fg_state=a%3D20028.44003.44049.1%26page%3D1%26fastget%3Dfg%26all%3D0%26search%3Dswirve%26product_select%3Done_week&vertical_id=0
[00:30:25] <zapanap> uni's provide unique ips to everyone on them
[00:30:25] <[Lotus]Peppie> check that one
[00:30:26] <[CSB]Dri> Correct, not to mention many netcafes, schools.
[00:30:28] <[Lotus]Peppie> 18K unique users
[00:31:14] <[Mod]nosajr> zauper, no, they don't. they can't not possibly buy enough external IPs to field all the desktops/laptops and servers that sit on their network. but like I said before, that's a totally different story.
[00:31:18] <[CSB]Dri> Imagine thousands who join from netcafes, which are very popular in many countries.
[00:31:51] <[Mod]nosajr> HOLD ON THIS IS GONNA GO OFF TOPIC FASTER THAN MY HAVING A BOWEL MOVEMENT
[00:31:55] <[Lotus]Peppie> universities seperate users with tags, those are seperate
[00:32:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> nosajr, not entirely
[00:32:20] <[Lotus]Peppie> once weve established that all the scripting and multi-ing is indeed choking the bottom part of utopia to death
[00:32:29] <[HaLL]Stoffer> [Mod]nosajr you forget that US uni´s are sitting on 30-40 %of all ip´s in the world
[00:32:30] <[Lotus]Peppie> we might at least have learned something valuable today :P
[00:33:10] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> yea,i missed all the summit,what was the subject again :P
[00:33:10] <[Mod]nosajr> Stoffer, that's where you're wrong, but I won't sit here and break down for you what the root servers handle
[00:33:11] <[Eclipse]Selassie> yes, there may well be 80,000 accounts, but can you honestly tell me there are more than 50,000 players?
[00:33:30] <[Lotus]Peppie> 35,072 provs
[00:33:35] <[Lotus]Peppie> thats from WoL survey
[00:33:37] * ShadowV pokes Animefan
[00:33:50] <brado> still discussing?
[00:34:04] <[HaLL]Stoffer> i remember when i started playing there where more than 82k provs in wol and BF together
[00:34:18] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I think that the actual number of players is like 40% of the quoted number
[00:34:28] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> especially if you count scripted provinces
[00:34:57] <brado> discussing anything relevent?
[00:35:32] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> the only relevant thing is trying to keep players in the game
[00:35:41] <brado> ah, thats when i left
[00:35:47] <brado> cuz thats so stupid
[00:36:01] <[TA]General_Red> if we want to encourage ppl to stay and learn about the game we need to keep it simple, the more specific you get the easier it is to abuse it...i heard alot about war being respected when declared/tagged but not fake wars but how do you learn this without violating war status to obtain CE+cb+survey's to verifiy the asumption of FW ..... early on it was said if a kingdom asks for mercy it ussually gets it so after being waved
[00:36:07] <brado> we as players cant change the way mehul gives us to play the game
[00:36:08] <[TA]General_Red> getting an CE 1 day later would make it an FW ?
[00:36:19] <[BoD]Keenan1> back
[00:36:37] <zapanap> i gotta run, have family over
[00:36:49] <brado> so long zap
[00:36:52] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> i think hostile shouldnt be a reason to stop attacking UNLESS the hostile is done the same day
[00:37:02] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> the attacks,or the day before
[00:37:04] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> thatd make more sense
[00:37:10] <[HaLL]Stoffer> im off to bed, wartague who has no life and work will take over ;) i have to be at work tomorrow
[00:37:16] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[00:37:27] <[TA]General_Red> without the old relation system its very difficult to tell hostile.. cos alot of different views on what an active hostile is
[00:37:50] <zapanap> generally speaking, my policy has been if someone waved/was waved that day, if there were no retals, and troops are home they're fair game
[00:38:00] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> right
[00:38:04] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> agree with that
[00:38:20] <brado> zapa
[00:38:27] <zapanap> that is.. the majority of armies, from the initial wave
[00:38:34] <brado> wouldnt it make sense to inquire whether or not they plan on retaliating 
[00:38:38] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> u wave a kd,u did period,if it was done the day before and no retals,this is obvious
[00:38:39] <zapanap> can't verify that everyone's army is home, but 5-6 out is no more than you'd expect
[00:38:44] <zapanap> if they were randoming
[00:38:44] <zapanap> well
[00:38:46] <[Mod]nosajr> Ok, I just want to get a clarification, or at least some sort of agreement. Would a KD, that has already declared war, be off limits to be hit?
[00:38:49] <zapanap> i do that too, brado ;p
[00:38:56] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> yes
[00:38:57] <brado> thats generally what i do
[00:39:02] <brado> if they say no
[00:39:02] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> if it is declared
[00:39:04] <zapanap> but
[00:39:04] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> dont beother
[00:39:05] <brado> they are fair game
[00:39:06] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> the war is on
[00:39:07] <brado> imo
[00:39:12] <zapanap> you still want more time than immediately after they waved imo
[00:39:14] <zapanap> to be fair
[00:39:14] <zapanap> ^^
[00:39:15] <[TA]General_Red> wave is how many? from what stance and do you discrimninate on race?
[00:39:15] <zapanap> k afk
[00:39:18] <[BoD]Keenan1> id say yes thats off limits, getting hit between declaring and war starting can mess guys up
[00:39:25] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> what would be the point to hit a kd that got delcared or declared?
[00:39:34] * [KLA]Eeeegor is now known as Eystia
[00:39:38] <zapanap> thalius should be revoiced, btw
[00:39:41] <[Mod]nosajr> free acres
[00:40:03] <[Mod]nosajr> some KDs will hit/wave a KD when the target KD is going to war
[00:40:16] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> free acres.....cmon man
[00:40:20] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> most of ppl attacks fro war
[00:40:23] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> for*
[00:40:32] <brado> thats hitting into an active hostile though nosajr
[00:40:36] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> that's pretty pathetic
[00:40:37] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> if u want free acres,u have the whole utopia to attack
[00:40:52] <[Mod]nosajr> brado I know, but I had a few Pms that asked me about clarification
[00:41:01] <[Mod]nosajr> so it's better to get it out in public
[00:41:04] <[BoD]Keenan1> lord but hitting into a kingdom heading to war is easier, they are less likly to retail cos they are about to egt to war
[00:41:08] <[Mod]nosajr> rather than me telling them what I think
[00:41:12] <[Ind]Wizard> Is this still going on?
[00:41:15] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> thats the point keenan
[00:41:22] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> u do that,ur not playin fair
[00:41:29] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> or hitting someone heading to war
[00:41:37] <[BoD]Keenan1> yes thats what im saying lol
[00:41:43] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> thats just the same as someone in war
[00:41:47] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> but u get more acres
[00:41:50] <[BoD]Keenan1> indeed
[00:42:00] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> i fully consider that OOW
[00:42:45] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> divinity,id like to talk to u after the summit
[00:42:47] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> how about this one that has been happening alot this age...
[00:42:49] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> i have good ideas for u
[00:42:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> ?
[00:42:53] <[Mod]Divinity> kk
[00:42:56] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> KDs waving just t/ms in a KD going to war
[00:42:58] <[Lotus]Peppie> why not share these ideas?
[00:43:07] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> because ur from lotus and i hate them ;)
[00:43:08] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> :P
[00:43:14] <[Lotus]Peppie> bweh
-
[00:43:18] [Ind]Lordwarallied is JavaUser@uto-CCD156A5.sympatico.ca * Java User
[00:43:18] [Ind]Lordwarallied on @#blabla +#alliance_summit +#taure 
[00:43:18] [Ind]Lordwarallied using bender.us.utonet.org UtoNet -- Bite my colossal metal ass
[00:43:18] [Ind]Lordwarallied has been idle 10secs, signed on Sun Mar 19 16:17:59
[00:43:18] [Ind]Lordwarallied End of /WHOIS list.
-
[00:43:19] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> lol @ warallied
[00:43:23] <[CSB]Dri> lol
[00:43:28] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Actually Lotus has some nice people
[00:43:31] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> i know
[00:43:34] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> if they have chicks
[00:43:35] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> then ok
[00:43:41] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> like you could get one...
[00:43:42] <[BoD]Keenan1> lord thats not needed, we ment to put all that aside and work together to help make utopia better for the players
[00:43:42] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> lol
[00:43:43] <[Mod]Divinity> if we have another summit I will make sure I leave a couple weeks before it actually happens ;p
[00:43:46] <[Mod]Divinity> too short of notice for all of us
[00:43:50] <[Lotus]Peppie> lets not go horribly off topic :/
[00:44:00] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> well i mjoking guys,i dont know anyone in lotus
[00:44:01] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> agreed
[00:44:04] <[Mod]Divinity> now that people actually know the topics
[00:44:11] <[Mod]Divinity> they can discuss it and think on it
[00:44:17] * [Mod]a_arcane is now known as cutelilarcie
[00:44:20] <[Lotus]Peppie> well
[00:44:28] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> maybe we should have had a chance to post topics of interest prior to this summit
[00:44:28] <[Mod]Divinity> think on what all the sides have said, and decide what each is willing to sacrifice a little bit for compromise
[00:44:36] <[Lotus]Peppie> i think its good if every alliance indeed prepares so argument on some preset topics
[00:44:37] <[TA]General_Red> we want to retain the new players , we want to keep the game fun and establish some basic guidelines?
[00:44:45] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> right
[00:44:47] <[Lotus]Peppie> and we have another round of +v talks
[00:44:57] <[Eclipse]Selassie> prob is
[00:44:58] <[BoD]Keenan1> well now i propose that a site is setup for training newer players, but for this to work voulenteers are needed,
[00:45:04] <[Mod]Piro> agreed
[00:45:10] <[TA]General_Red> so lets start with some basics now and think about how to work from that
[00:45:10] <[Mod]Divinity> I think this summit has been a good learning experience and shown some of the difficulties that come from such an event
[00:45:14] <[Eclipse]Selassie> who the hell are bod and mod?
[00:45:18] <[Lotus]Peppie> that it has :P
[00:45:21] <[CSB]Dri> Keenan, aren't there too many already?
[00:45:22] <brado> these summits will never accomplish anything tho..
[00:45:24] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[00:45:24] <[BoD]Keenan1> MoD is a mod
[00:45:25] <[TA]General_Red> Mod are moderaters
[00:45:25] <ShadowV> newer players got to use the site that IS setup first
[00:45:28] <[Eclipse]Selassie> oh, mod = moderator
[00:45:29] <[Eclipse]Selassie> ROFL
[00:45:30] <[Eclipse]Selassie> im tired
[00:45:31] <[Eclipse]Selassie> shh
[00:45:32] <[Mod]Divinity> BoD = Brotherhood of the Dragon (I believe)
[00:45:33] <[BoD]Keenan1> and BoD is a lnog lived alliance
[00:45:34] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> bod= brotherhood of dragon
[00:45:36] <[Lotus]Peppie> i still think that in order to make the game hot for new players they need to be in a fun KD
[00:45:37] <[BoD]Keenan1> correct
[00:45:45] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> correct
[00:45:48] <[Lotus]Peppie> if the KD isnt fun, game knowledge helps fuck-all
[00:45:53] <brado> peppie
[00:45:56] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> but gosh newbs should be casted and sent into a ghetto
[00:45:56] <brado> thats not the problem
[00:45:59] <[Mod]Divinity> I will write up an article and compress some of the ideas
[00:46:00] <[BoD]Keenan1> but those who dont land in good or decent kd's shouldnt be left in the dark
[00:46:03] <[Mod]Piro> A summit might be better in a forum  then IRC perhaps
[00:46:07] <brado> its that the game is no longer about being fun
[00:46:17] <brado> due to changes placed by swirve
[00:46:34] <[Lotus]Peppie> dude, we've lost the ability to see through the eyes of complete nubs
[00:46:35] <[TA]General_Red> but alot of the good ideas were becoming to specific on splitting hairs and i havent seen a consensus made and when i posted an remark about it it got no response so i am curious
[00:46:41] <[Lotus]Peppie> for them its all fresh and potentially fun
[00:46:42] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> actually the changes this age were the best we have had in 10 ages
[00:46:50] <brado> ofc we have
[00:47:07] <[Lotus]Peppie> its up to their direct playing environment, i.e. the KD and its doings, to make things fun
[00:47:52] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> well,what u guys think about,the future of non alliance kds
[00:48:01] <[BoD]Keenan1> ok then well im very set of the newbie help, so much so i will start working on a site for it, i would apreciate any help with this, PM if you intrested
[00:48:16] <[CSB]Dri> Lordwarallied, they do not have a future.
[00:48:17] <[Mod]Piro> or join #guide
[00:48:19] <[Mod]Piro> ;)
[00:48:21] <[TA]General_Red> and they get waved ... are unable to retal so their troops are home and get waved again an couple of hours later and again and again....cos there was a grace period and their troops are home
[00:48:21] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[00:48:22] <[BoD]Keenan1> ahhh :P
[00:48:24] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> i like u Dri
[00:48:25] <[TA]General_Red> alot of fun indeed
[00:48:34] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[00:49:07] <[CSB]Dri> Lordwarallied, seriously, most kingdoms above noob status will go in an alliance sooner or later and Utopia will look like an alliance based game with just a few ghetto kingdoms (I mean really ghetto.).
[00:49:27] <[Lotus]Peppie> ?
[00:49:49] <[Lotus]Peppie> theres an ages old independent vs alliance KD mechanism in motion
[00:49:50] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> right CSB dri,but im sure that non alliance kds is still a large independant sector of utopia
[00:49:54] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> they have no rules
[00:49:59] <[Lotus]Peppie> i havent seen anything that caused that to change
[00:50:05] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> i mean,thats sound still fun to me
[00:50:05] * [Mod]trooneh is now known as [mod]trooneh|away
[00:50:13] <[Lotus]Peppie> on that level, things will go as they have always gone
[00:50:34] <[TA]General_Red> not if we can agree on some universal basics
[00:50:42] <[TA]General_Red> and slowly work from that
[00:50:52] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> yes
[00:50:53] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> make sense
[00:51:10] <[TA]General_Red> most respect war status but not Fake wars
[00:51:12] <[TA]General_Red> so i again ask
[00:51:17] <[TA]General_Red> how do you verify
[00:51:20] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> well
[00:51:23] <[Lotus]Peppie> well it would be nice if we could take away the incentive for ghettos to join alliances in the first place
[00:51:23] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> most of the time
[00:51:25] <[TA]General_Red> without invading war
[00:51:26] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> i see a fake war when
[00:51:30] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> both kds has the same tag
[00:51:32] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[00:52:04] <[TA]General_Red> peppie than we need to ban out of war chains, waves and bottomfeeding
[00:52:07] <[Lotus]Peppie> but who here really wants that? the moment KDs dont deem alliances necessary anymore, they will become a dying breed, and my guess is that the powers that be wont like that at all :P
[00:52:20] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Peppie? Why would we want to take the opportunity away from a KD who wants to better themselves
[00:52:39] <[Lotus]Peppie> people get bottomfed/waved whether in or out of an alliance
[00:52:59] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> hey Mourer
[00:53:11] <[Lotus]Peppie> im not making an argument to abolish or undermine alliances, these are just general comments
[00:53:18] <[TA]General_Red> we got waved/bottomfeed without being part of an alliance that was our main reason for joining
[00:53:24] <[TA]General_Red> ;)
[00:53:34] <[Lotus]Peppie> oh
[00:53:43] <[Lotus]Peppie> my main and only reason was HaLL :P
[00:54:01] <[TA]General_Red> when i joined i didnt know most alliances
[00:54:15] <[TA]General_Red> i knew about the gangbang protection and that was good
[00:54:52] <[TA]General_Red> most will leave over such small details
[00:55:01] <[Mod]Divinity> let me ask all the reps something
[00:55:06] <[Mod]Divinity> a bunch of people wanted to bring this up
[00:55:11] <[Lotus]Peppie> the question that started this discussion was <[Ind]Lordwarallied> well,what u guys think about,the future of non alliance kds
[00:55:14] <[Mod]Divinity> how many would be interested in some UN type of thing?
[00:55:34] <[TA]General_Red> i hope it works better than the real thing
[00:55:39] <[TA]General_Red> =)
[00:55:40] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> It would be difficult, but keeping conversation between alliances I think is a healty thing
[00:55:48] <[eX]DrAlex> only if we get to be the US of the utopia UN
[00:55:51] <[eX]DrAlex> lol
[00:55:54] <[Lotus]Peppie> i would be semi-interested - not as much as a military force but itd be cute to have some place in utopia other than mehul where you can file your complaints
[00:55:56] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> some of the alliance wars are just plain stupid and hurtful to the game
[00:55:58] <[Mod]Divinity> haha DrAlex
[00:56:16] <[Lotus]Peppie> i dont think  another ZEA - The Rebellion will do us any good though
[00:56:23] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[00:56:29] <brado> lol divinity
[00:56:29] <[TA]General_Red> zea?
[00:56:30] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> the empire are evil
[00:56:36] <brado> i suggested that in the beginning
[00:56:38] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> id ask vader to join the church
[00:56:40] <[Mod]Divinity> because there are a couple ideas on the UN thing ;p
[00:56:40] <[Lotus]Peppie> info on them here -->
[00:56:41] <[Lotus]Peppie> http://web.archive.org/web/20030422173838/www.avidgamers.com/Zea/ad.html
[00:56:45] <[NI]Tamolin> if it was properly ordered and all alliance had a say it could be a good thing.again only if it was properly conducted
[00:56:49] <brado> as a way to moderate case by case on the double hostile standard
[00:57:21] <[Mod]Divinity> could have some dips on standby and have the leaders of the alliances in a channel
[00:57:23] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> it would have been fun for mehul to be here
[00:57:23] <[NA]Ulrick> it could work, much better then this...
[00:57:26] <[Mod]Divinity> would have to be a lot smaller than this one
[00:57:30] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> so he can  see what we are talking about
[00:57:32] * [Mod]Divinity looks at the 330 other people in the channel
[00:57:39] <brado> ofc
[00:57:39] <[Lotus]Peppie> thats a good thing [Mod]Divinity
[00:57:45] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I still think Mehul has someone here
[00:57:51] <[NA]Ulrick> i am he!
[00:57:54] <[Lotus]Peppie> let this be an international court or something
[00:57:54] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[00:58:00] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> right
[00:58:01] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> lol @ Ulrick
[00:58:05] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> im talking to divinity abvout that
[00:58:08] <brado> 1 from the 'elite' alliance each and one outside non-alliance party would more than suffice for a UN type coalition divinity
[00:58:11] <[Lotus]Peppie> everyone is welcome but if youre not an alliance rep, keep the channel moderated
[00:58:12] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> the Mehul is a bigger asshole then I thought
[00:58:13] <[NA]Ulrick> and you have all been deleted for having communication outside the game
[00:58:21] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[00:58:24] <[TA]General_Red> lol
[00:58:24] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> sends the luv to Ulrick
[00:58:24] <brado> but there are many problems with that
[00:58:31] <brado> ulrick!
[00:58:34] <brado> remember me?
[00:58:39] <[Mod]Divinity> brado
[00:58:41] <[NA]Ulrick> take it to pm
[00:58:51] <[Mod]Divinity> do you mean only the "elite" alliances would be able to be in there?
[00:58:58] <[Abs]Chai> could we at least get a discussion on no chain elking?
[00:59:04] <[Mod]Divinity> or also the other alliances not considered "elite"?
[00:59:07] <brado> elking?
[00:59:15] <[Mod]nosajr> el king i think that's what he meant ;p
[00:59:34] <brado> im still not sure what that means
[00:59:49] <[NI]Salomo|busy> i think a UN type thing would be good, but not in terms of implementing and enforcing but rather as a means for setting standards
[00:59:54] <[NA]Ulrick> i think an internation Un sort of thing could work where you could sort your "issues" out.. however this would not work in practice because what if for example Abs did something naughty, and you complained and did some sort of military effort against them you would end up razed to ground
[00:59:54] <[Lotus]Peppie> all alliances should be here
[00:59:59] <[Lotus]Peppie> represented..
[01:00:07] <[NI]Salomo|busy> there is no way a "utopia court" would prevail
[01:00:08] <brado> itd be way too much to handle
[01:00:20] <brado> if all alliances were represented
[01:00:30] <brado> theres too manyproblems such as that
[01:00:32] <[Lotus]Peppie> [NI]Salomo|busy - that depends on the role of the court
[01:00:32] <[NI]Salomo|busy> ulrick, it depends on the situation
[01:00:34] <brado> with the UN idea though
[01:00:41] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> yes
[01:00:45] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> thats what i msaying to divinity
[01:00:47] <[TA]General_Red> the difference in morals and ethics make it difficult to find common ground
[01:00:48] <[NI]Tamolin> plus if we all talked instead of fighting wed lose alot of fun in the game lol
[01:00:51] <[Mod]Matty|Work> What punishments would be involved and who would enforce them ?
[01:00:52] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> im trying to prepare something like that
[01:00:53] <[NI]Salomo|busy> if an abs KD does something stupid you might be able to take action against it
[01:00:57] <[Lotus]Peppie> id see it mainly as a platform to talk, philosophy, think things over
[01:00:59] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> yes
[01:01:01] <[TA]General_Red> some prefer to chain all the wave , others call it unfair tactics
[01:01:03] <[NI]Salomo|busy> depending on how badly they fucked up and how strong you are
[01:01:06] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> but u have to talk about it in the international community
[01:01:06] <[Mod]Piro> Obviously there would be different ways things would be handled/voted on
[01:01:07] <[Lotus]Peppie> nothing with executive power or smt :P
[01:01:23] <[Mod]Piro> agreed Peppie
[01:01:24] * [Mod]Matty|Work is now known as Matty
[01:01:26] <[Mod]Piro> power corrupts
[01:01:39] <[Lotus]Peppie> if alliance A destroys KD B, KD B can come here and whine, and we could all say things like "gee, alliance A are cunts"
[01:01:40] <[Eclipse]Selassie> I am done, good talk, all 4 hours of it :/
[01:01:41] <[Eclipse]Selassie> cya ll
[01:01:45] <[Lotus]Peppie> maybe send them an official note
[01:01:51] <[Lotus]Peppie> "you guys are cunts"
[01:01:52] <[TA]General_Red> lol
[01:01:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> signed, the court
[01:01:58] <[TA]General_Red> roflmao
[01:02:04] <[TA]General_Red> that be fun
[01:02:14] <Matty> Please watch your langauge.
[01:02:16] -[Lotus]Charmed- nice terminology
[01:02:17] <[NI]Salomo|busy> heh
[01:02:24] <[Lotus]Peppie> excusez-moi :P
[01:02:24] #alliance_summit You need voice (+v) (#alliance_summit)
[01:02:31] <[TA]General_Red> spam them 'you are mean :( '
[01:02:46] <[NA]Ulrick> but to inforce such a policy you would need kingdoms of equal stature enforcing policies... you cant just go stop.. because some kingdoms like getting reactions
[01:02:58] <[Lotus]Peppie> meh
[01:03:02] <[Lotus]Peppie> excusez-moi :P
[01:03:12] <Matty> You're excused
[01:03:16] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[01:03:20] <[TA]General_Red> hehehe
[01:03:21] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> why french? why!!
[01:03:22] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> lol
[01:03:24] <[Lotus]Peppie> im just saying, reputation should count for something
[01:03:36] <[NI]Salomo|busy> ulrick, as long as the rules are clear and widely you can usually also enforce them, even against a bigger alliance
[01:03:55] <[NI]Salomo|busy> unless of course theother alliance wants war
[01:03:59] <Sneaky> Reputation counts for a lot
[01:04:10] <[NH]Champion_Havoc> lol @ peppie :p
[01:04:11] -[Lotus]Charmed- problem with that is some people/alliances take pride in having a "bad rep", i.e. jaco
[01:04:12] <Sneaky> Unfortunatly you need to establish a reputation
[01:04:22] <Sneaky> Once you do that peppie, you might have better luck
[01:04:37] <[TA]General_Red> yes but how does this help us retain new players 
[01:04:42] <[TA]General_Red> or keep the game fun
[01:04:52] <Matty> Please dont insult other members.
[01:04:54] <[Lotus]Peppie> eh
[01:04:57] <[TA]General_Red> i didnt?
[01:05:03] <[TA]General_Red> did i?
[01:05:17] <[TA]General_Red> :/
[01:05:19] <Matty> Was talking to Sneaky
[01:05:22] <[TA]General_Red> owh
[01:05:22] <[TA]General_Red> ok
[01:05:26] <[TA]General_Red> :-)
[01:05:32] <brado> how was that an insult
[01:05:36] <[NI]Salomo|busy> does everything we do have to help keep new players?
[01:05:37] <brado> chill  out Matty
[01:05:51] <brado> its been respectful convo the whole time no need for devoicing ppl?
[01:05:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> if we want some interalliance/utopian body that wields some moral/law-ish scepter, then any game power attributed to it makes it doomed to fail
[01:06:11] <[BoD]Keenan1> well as for the training new guys anybody who would wish to help training newer players come to #guide we are discussing this subject in depth here
[01:06:13] <[Lotus]Peppie> its best weapon would be reputation, information, pointing fingers etc
[01:06:37] <[TA]General_Red> make a 'shitlist'?
[01:06:39] <[Lotus]Peppie> for instance, some dude says "bloke y just told me he scripted 250 accounts"
[01:06:50] <[Lotus]Peppie> and the dude 'reports' bloke y
[01:06:55] <[NI]Salomo|busy> that, as well as establishing consensus between alliances, peppie... don't underestimate that weapon
[01:07:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> and we have some stance like "scripting sucks, it chokes ghettos to death"
[01:07:08] <brado> peppie, are you saying that you would even think a UN type of idea would work?
[01:07:08] <[Mod]Divinity> alright guys
[01:07:20] <[Mod]Divinity> I want to say something, so please quiet for a minute
[01:07:24] <[TA]General_Red> ok
[01:07:28] <[Lotus]Peppie> k
[01:07:33] <[Mod]Divinity> the idea that we are coming up with at the moment would involve 2 steps
[01:07:40] <[NI]Salomo|busy> all alliances agree that waving into a real war is illegitmate, and no alliance would intervene when you punish one of their KDs for doing that
[01:07:44] <[Mod]Divinity> the first step would be to first decide some of these issues, and this step will take a while
[01:08:04] <[Mod]Divinity> IRC is not the best place for this, for reasons which are quite apparent in this room
[01:08:11] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> well
[01:08:19] <[Lotus]Peppie> best is to combine platforms
[01:08:19] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> u can unvoice everyone
[01:08:22] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> and each turn
[01:08:23] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> u voice them
[01:08:27] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> and when they are finish
[01:08:28] <[Mod]Divinity> so the idea is to create a forums to first discuss the issues
[01:08:28] <[Lotus]Peppie> IRC is useful for other things
[01:08:35] <[Mod]Divinity> once we have decided on some basic things we can agree upon
[01:08:41] <[NA]Ulrick> aall in all, in the end its not the responsibility of the alliances who are a minial part of this game to decide how to keep the majority of non alliances people in the game. If you want to generalise that the majority of problems facing the loss of people is the actuall land dropping, for 1 person to start an account they will 99% land in a ghetto or smaller kingdom. That IMO would be the number 1 cause for loss of players is not 
[01:08:44] <[Lotus]Peppie> we can bind forums to this channel, but keep using both
[01:08:45] <[Mod]Divinity> then we can attempt to move to step 2, which would be creating this body
[01:09:05] <[Mod]Divinity> indeed, I encourage people to continue to use this channel to discuss issues
[01:09:12] <[Lotus]Peppie> what would be the nature of that body though?
[01:09:20] <[Lotus]Peppie> i hope it wont wield direct utopian power :/
[01:09:33] <[Mod]Divinity> we will see what people want
[01:09:37] <[Mod]Divinity> that is part of what step 1 would decide
[01:09:43] <[Mod]Divinity> what do we want the group to do?
[01:09:52] <[NI]Salomo|busy> peppie, it can't wield direct power
[01:09:55] <[NI]Salomo|busy> if it tried to it would fail
[01:09:57] <[NI]Salomo|busy> so no worries
[01:10:07] <[Lotus]Peppie> huzzah
[01:10:12] <[Mod]Divinity> at the very least it would be a place where the 2 different major groups...the elite alliances with a lot in Top50, and the smaller alliances (outside of Top50) to hold councils and discuss mutual problems
[01:10:15] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> hey Ulrick how often do you actually deal with people not in alliances or in ghettos?
[01:10:29] <[NA]Ulrick> 50% of the time
[01:10:41] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> lol, well for me it's like 98% of the time
[01:10:45] <[NA]Ulrick> im talking from experience in ghettos
[01:10:51] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> well i do think u do it the voice and unvoice way,it will settle a lot of problems
[01:10:55] <[NA]Ulrick> i by far am not in a good kingdom
[01:10:59] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I am in a ghetto, have been in ghettos and deal with ghetto problems daily
[01:11:02] <[NA]Ulrick> but before i know what its like to be new to the game
[01:11:19] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I've been told by more players that have quit that it's because of alliances
[01:11:29] <[Lotus]Peppie> ugh :/
[01:11:30] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> not that their aren't other reasons
[01:11:37] <[NA]Ulrick> and Whiterabbit what i am saying that the issues should be more directed at kingdoms like you because your at the bottom of the barrol
[01:11:38] <[Lotus]Peppie> did they go into specifics?
[01:11:39] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> but at the lowest level, that is a major complaint
[01:11:50] <[NI]Salomo|busy> [BsH]WhiteRabbit, most people that have told me they dislike alliances have simply never been in a decent one
[01:11:51] <[NA]Ulrick> Abs, ex, nox, eclipse can deal with themselves
[01:11:53] <[BoD]Keenan1> WR you cant pin guys leaving on 1 reason, there are as i mentioned earleir a million reason why people quit
[01:11:54] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> this is crap,there is alliances since the golden ages of utopia
[01:11:56] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> lol bottom of the barrel?
[01:12:08] <[Lotus]Peppie> i dislike alliances too though :P
[01:12:08] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I'm not pinning it on one thing
[01:12:21] <[Lotus]Peppie> lotus isnt the cream of the pie, but its not shit either
[01:12:23] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> however, I don't think it should just be dismissed or poopooed away
[01:12:28] <[NI]Salomo|busy> have you ever been in a decent one, peppie? ;-p
[01:12:29] <[Mod]Divinity> so you guys are interested in at least looking into this idea further, correct?
[01:12:35] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> of course
[01:12:35] <[NI]Salomo|busy> j/k
[01:12:36] <[TA]General_Red> yes
[01:12:36] <[Lotus]Peppie> sure divinity
[01:12:39] <[BoD]Keenan1> yea
[01:12:41] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> yes
[01:12:43] <[NA]Ulrick> Divinity, you need a site
[01:12:46] <[NH]Champion_Havoc> would be cool
[01:12:46] <[Lotus]Peppie> some sitebased polls could go a long way
[01:12:48] <[NA]Ulrick> an official site
[01:12:52] <[NH]Champion_Havoc> hey ulrick
[01:12:53] <[TA]General_Red> wow we agred on something :D
[01:12:55] <[Mod]Divinity> I will handle the site part, no worries :)
[01:13:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> on agreeing on rules and what-not
[01:13:09] <[NA]Ulrick> this by all means wont happen over night
[01:13:10] <[Mod]Divinity> this won't happen today though, it will take a bit of time
[01:13:18] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> and mehul will have an hand on u so he can mehul u when he wants
[01:13:20] <[Mod]Divinity> if you hang out in this channel I will make sure you all get updates on how things are moving along
[01:13:24] <[NA]Ulrick> lol Divinity i see we are still thinking alike
[01:13:26] <[Mod]Divinity> and if people want to talk in here, they can talk as well :)
[01:13:28] <[NI]Tamolin> still its a good idea if it moves along right
[01:13:37] <[Mod]Divinity> rofl Ulrick
[01:13:50] <[NA]Ulrick> its going to be like washing your hair
[01:13:52] <[Mod]Piro> Just needs to be setup right
[01:13:58] <[NI]Tamolin> lol
[01:14:02] <[NA]Ulrick> with a new shampoo.. it takes a while to get results
[01:14:12] <brado> it wont be effective if it doesnt have power...
[01:14:30] <[NI]Tamolin> hence any alliances in it should be expected to help enforce it.
[01:14:36] <[Lotus]Peppie> divinity, its probably a good idea to hold these kind of meetings with some frequency, maybe once in 2-3 weeks
[01:14:40] <[TA]General_Red> if we work on bases of reputation and a shitlist it will help alot even without an police force
[01:14:41] <brado> and its likely to be corrupt, abused if it does have power
[01:14:49] <brado> the idea is great, but it'll never work
[01:14:53] <[NA]Ulrick> lol.. bas example.. why dont we have an United Nations... each alliance donates one of their kingdoms to be representative... 
[01:14:57] <[Mod]Piro> it can work
[01:15:06] <brado> ok
[01:15:08] <[Lotus]Peppie> because if theres no followup or direct consequences to this one, the idea/initiative will whither and die
[01:15:11] <[Mod]Piro> however, it will take a lot of thinking and work
[01:15:11] <[eXLadyjo]> yes
[01:15:13] <[NA]Ulrick> if an issue arives you use the peace corp to deal our military effort
[01:15:16] <[Mod]Divinity> :)
[01:15:17] <[Mod]Divinity> <3 LadyJo
[01:15:20] <brado> lets say alliance A kills a kd, for whatever reason they have Piro
[01:15:21] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> but of course ppl will be active
[01:15:23] <[Lotus]Peppie> no military shit :/
[01:15:23] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> its like today
[01:15:24] <[Ind]Lordwarallied> its huge
[01:15:29] <brado> the kd complains to our UN
[01:15:36] <brado> what is gonna be the result?
[01:15:41] <[Mod]Divinity> Peppie I will try to organize to have another discussion in a couple/few weeks
[01:15:48] <[Lotus]Peppie> that'd be hot
[01:15:50] <[Ind]Striker073> ..
[01:15:51] <[Mod]Divinity> brado, that is what we need to discuss
[01:15:51] <[Ind]Striker073> UN?
[01:15:55] <[Mod]Divinity> I don't have all the answers already ;p
[01:15:56] <brado> if the UN is to hold ANY power
[01:16:00] <[NA]Ulrick> but this is a war game... how will a non military push effect someone from the top 4 alliances
[01:16:02] <[TA]General_Red> investigation, and talks with both parties and an consensus is reached? or something like that
[01:16:05] <[Ind]Striker073> there have beeen UNs before
[01:16:07] <[Ind]Striker073> they all failed
[01:16:07] <[NA]Ulrick> they will laugh at you
[01:16:09] <[Lotus]Peppie> the UN term seems to scare a lot of people
[01:16:10] <[Ind]Striker073> and were useless
[01:16:16] <[Ind]Striker073> I forget what they were called
[01:16:21] <brado> then the result COULD be a military attack on the alliance
[01:16:26] <[Lotus]Peppie> but dudes, today there were over 550 people in this channel, and mostly important ones
[01:16:29] <brado> and, if theres to be NO  power w/ the UN
[01:16:30] <[Ind]Striker073> no one is going to defend other people
[01:16:35] <brado> they cant do a damn thing
[01:16:36] <[Mod]Divinity> let's just call it a "problem-solving group"
[01:16:38] <[Ind]Striker073> unless it's in their own interest
[01:16:39] <[eXLadyjo]> diplomatic corps would
[01:16:45] <brado> it will simply not work
[01:16:52] <[TA]General_Red> and if same member is too often is abusive it get shitlisted as a clear sign of disrespect
[01:16:52] <[Lotus]Peppie> reputationbludgeoners maybe?
[01:16:54] <brado> end of story no matter how u try to make it work
[01:16:56] <[Lotus]Peppie> morality gestapo?
[01:16:57] <[Mod]Divinity> brado...the UN would be all of the alliances
[01:17:04] <[Mod]Divinity> saying the UN would have no power means the alliances have no power ;p
[01:17:04] <[Ind]Striker073> why would my kd stop whoring or warring or whatever we're doing just to help someone we have no relations with?
[01:17:08] <[Ind]Striker073> it makes no sense
[01:17:08] <[NA]Ulrick> all i see is that they want to decide on things for their own interest, and then find loopholes to then also benefit themselves.. imo
[01:17:11] <brado> divinity
[01:17:14] <brado> when you say that
[01:17:27] <[Mod]Divinity> because eventually that attitude is going to make it so that you have no one left to whore on, Striker
[01:17:31] * [mod]trooneh|away is now known as trooneh
[01:17:34] <brado> you should realize that if the UN is composed of all alliances
[01:17:39] <brado> not only will it be too much to organize
[01:17:52] <brado> but it will also create a barrier
[01:18:09] <[Ind]Striker073> I still do not believe that that is the real reason people are leaving
[01:18:13] <[Ind]Striker073> I was a n00b once too
[01:18:13] <[TA]General_Red> Striker if you kill all the game first week of summer, in winter you grow very hungry... by keeping new players and giving them some room to evolve we get more kd's to play with
[01:18:24] <brado> the reps from the smaller alliances will not be able to accurately decide what actions should be taken when dealing with an issue that involves top kds
[01:18:27] <brado> and vice versa
[01:18:28] <[Ind]Striker073> If everyone left the game when they got bottomfed or whatever the game would have died a long time ago
[01:18:36] <[Lotus]Peppie> some more thoughts:
[01:18:37] <[Lotus]Peppie> [01:17:26] <[Lotus]Peppie> well, words have power
[01:18:37] <[Lotus]Peppie> [01:18:10] <[Lotus]Peppie> if alliances' mischief could be published and publically accessed, it could be used as a reference for people looking for an alliance
[01:18:39] <[Ind]Striker073> People blame elite alliances and kingdoms for everything
[01:18:41] <[Lotus]Peppie> [01:18:20] <[Lotus]Peppie> an alliance with a shit rep may not be joined
[01:18:53] <brado> hope you caught that amistd the spam divinity
[01:18:59] <[TA]General_Red> striker it did , but some scripted to fill it back up again
[01:19:10] <[Mod]Divinity> brado
[01:19:17] <[Mod]Divinity> the idea is to have 2 separate councils, at least at the moment
[01:19:22] <[Mod]Divinity> there are two tiers of utopian alliances
[01:19:25] <brado> that would be better
[01:19:35] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I really think the idea of blackballing KDs from alliances would be highly effective
[01:19:35] <brado> but its still not going to work 
[01:19:36] <[Mod]Divinity> ie: Abs, eX, Nox, Eclipse, KLA, etc.
[01:19:42] <[Mod]Divinity> they have one council
[01:19:47] <[Mod]Divinity> and then the other alliances have another council
[01:19:51] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> granted the blackballed KDs would then probably start their own alliance
[01:20:00] <[Lotus]Peppie> dudes?
[01:20:02] <brado> when i originally suggested the 'elite' alliances and one non-alliances non biased member
[01:20:06] <[Lotus]Peppie> i may be onto something here
[01:20:07] <[NI]Tamolin> where would you draw the line..who would watch over the "top"
[01:20:09] <[NI]Salomo|busy> divinity, i'd have a simmilar but different idea
[01:20:12] <[Mod]Divinity> if a small Kingdom or alliance has a problem with the upper alliances, they can bring it before them
[01:20:17] <[Lotus]Peppie> if we create some kind of pan-alliance judging panel
[01:20:17] <[NI]Salomo|busy> make one council with two chambers
[01:20:24] <[NI]Tamolin> exactly salamo
[01:20:24] <[Ind]Striker073> because they would be just as effective as the UN security council? lol
[01:20:28] <[Lotus]Peppie> and we keep track/record of alliance's reputation
[01:20:30] <[Ind]Striker073> that's promising
[01:20:34] <[Lotus]Peppie> and we keep that published
[01:20:34] <brado> peppie
[01:20:41] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> Peppie thing is we need people who can stay unbiased
[01:20:42] <[Mod]Divinity> that might be interesting, Peppie
[01:20:47] <brado> what does that have to do with anything?
[01:20:48] <[Lotus]Peppie> it may be an incentive for people to not be assholes
[01:20:52] <brado> a reputation cannot be 'tracked'
[01:20:52] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> and how would those people be chosen
[01:20:55] <[BoD]Keenan1> divinty good idea, but problem i can see is that the top half may just ignore ideas to sort the problem of the bottom
[01:20:57] <[NI]Salomo|busy> the top alliances are in one chamber, the "bottom" in the other and both chambers decide together
[01:21:00] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> brado a rep can be tracked
[01:21:02] <brado> as it is open to interpretation
[01:21:06] <[Mod]Divinity> if there are people from every alliance doing it, then they are watching eachother
[01:21:07] <[Lotus]Peppie> because a bad rep on a site that holds weight may stem the in-flow of new membership
[01:21:07] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> true
[01:21:07] <brado> by each individual
[01:21:13] <[Ind]Striker073> I don't think you guys understand
[01:21:19] <brado> therefore cannot be recorded, nor tracked
[01:21:20] <[Ind]Striker073> This has been done muliple times before
[01:21:23] <[Ind]Striker073> and failed miserably
[01:21:28] <[Lotus]Peppie> its just one point of view, and if every alliance has an equal say, its somewhat resistant to corruption
[01:21:29] <[eXLadyjo]> the goal is to improve gameplay, generate noob interest and fairness, agree that the game will die without noob retention, keep alliance gameplay in check so we dont lose our game
[01:21:33] <brado> as it will fail again
[01:21:36] <brado> if you bother to try
[01:21:37] <[Lotus]Peppie> ive never heard of anything like it, striker?
[01:21:37] <[Mod]Divinity> Striker, if you don't want to participate with us
[01:21:38] <[NI]Salomo|busy> [0##:##] <+[Lotus]Peppie> because a bad rep on a site that holds weight may stem the in-flow of new membership <-- i doubt it
[01:21:39] <[Mod]Divinity> then don't :)
[01:21:41] <[Ind]Striker073> Alliances are groups of self interest
[01:21:53] <[Ind]Striker073> then you haven't played very long
[01:21:55] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> but I don't think it's open to interpretation when say a 15 million NW ABS KD hits into a 5 million NW KD oow just because they can isn't open to interpretation
[01:22:03] <[BoD]Keenan1> jo please refrain from using "noob" newbie will suffice, its words liek noob that also deters players
[01:22:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> ive been playing since december 2000
[01:22:14] <brado> sure it white rabbit
[01:22:19] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> <---luved being a nub
[01:22:27] <brado> one person may think 'thats lame for picking on weaker players'
[01:22:28] <[Lotus]Peppie> if we establish ourselves as an authority on the grounds of alliance reputation, we may actually end up being part in the decisionprocess of KDs seeking to join an alliance
[01:22:28] * [Abs]Li slaps [Abs]Chai around a bit with a large trout
[01:22:32] <[Abs]Li> chai, you noob!
[01:22:39] <brado> another may think 'how are the weak players gonna learn if they dont do that'
[01:22:45] <[Lotus]Peppie> for instance
[01:22:46] <[Abs]Li> zoot, nooblar!
[01:22:51] <[Ind]Striker073> then you weren't involved in alliances much back then
[01:22:53] <[]funky> li n00blar
[01:22:54] * trooneh is now known as trooneh|brb
[01:22:57] <[Abs]Li> funky, noob!
[01:22:59] <[Lotus]Peppie> alliancerankings.com filled the need for people to have some reference to alliance strength and standings
[01:23:00] <[Ind]Striker073> UDC, UDO, The Gathering
[01:23:05] <[Ind]Striker073> ring a bell?
[01:23:05] * Matty is now known as Matty|AFK
[01:23:09] <[Ind]Striker073> same idea
[01:23:14] <[TA]General_Red> striker no it doesnt ring a bell
[01:23:23] <[Lotus]Peppie> but its all objective - you only get numbers, but you dont know what an alliance is like or what they do 
[01:23:26] <[Ind]Striker073> well it was a while ago they are all defunct
[01:23:29] <[BoD]Keenan1> well we can use that as a joke between [players, but new players find it offensive and can have a bad moral effect, effectivly maknig him leave the game as he has no enjoyment
[01:23:50] <[NI]Salomo|busy> Divinity, how about this setup:
[01:23:50] <[NI]Salomo|busy> There is one council with two chambers. First chamber includes all alliances with at least 3 KDs in top 50 NW/acre charts. Second chamber includes all other alliances.
[01:23:50] <[NI]Salomo|busy> Each chamber has 10 votes, which are divided up the way the members in the chamber vote (70% in chamber 1 vote in favor, so 7 of their votes go to yes, 3 to no). Then the votes of both chambers are counted together, et voila
[01:23:53] <[Ind]Striker073> the point is no alliance is going to help another unless they are allies or they get something out of it
[01:24:01] <[Ind]Striker073> ie NAP
[01:24:02] <[Ind]Striker073> or such
[01:24:14] <[Lotus]Peppie> if we keep a criminal record of alliances, and its done consequently and everyone agrees, and it starts becoming a relevant source for information, we may be on the way to creating a slightly more enjoyable gaming environment
[01:24:19] <[Ind]Striker073> If you say otherwise you're kidding yourself
[01:24:26] <[NI]Salomo|busy> [0##:##] <+[Ind]Striker073> the point is no alliance is going to help another unless they are allies or they get something out of it <-- indeed, but an alliance may use whatever another aliance has used as excuse for bashing someone else as excuse for bashing them
[01:24:45] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I disagree Salomo
[01:25:06] <[Ind]Striker073> of course
[01:25:17] <[Ind]Striker073> there are always times when people will band togethor to take out one alliance
[01:25:18] <[Ind]Striker073> IROn
[01:25:20] <[Ind]Striker073> HaLL
[01:25:20] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> it really depends on the goals of the alliance
[01:25:21] <[Ind]Striker073> etc.
[01:25:27] <[Ind]Striker073> but that's few and far between
[01:25:33] <[NI]Salomo|busy> alliance A GBs a KD cause they have too many A's in their KD name... Alliance B would like to GB a KD in alliance A, so they argue that KD had too many B's in their name
[01:25:34] <[Lotus]Peppie> [Mod]Divinity, what do you think of my suggestion? :P
[01:25:35] <[Ind]Striker073> no alliances like that exist anymore
[01:25:38] <[NI]Salomo|busy> what comes around goes around
[01:25:41] <[Mod]Divinity> I think it would be interesting
[01:25:44] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> BsH's goals are simple, to make game play more interesting and to war as often as we can
[01:25:47] <[Mod]Divinity> has some things to work out as people have mentioned
[01:25:49] <brado> they will come again striker
[01:25:50] <[Mod]Divinity> but it could work quite well
[01:25:58] <brado> Spirit is the best example
[01:26:08] <[Mod]Divinity> but guys it is getting quite late
[01:26:12] <[TA]General_Red> divinity i would suggest making the split between members and those we have been on good behaviour on council
[01:26:14] <brado> what would a UN do about an alliance created strictly to go against another alliance?
[01:26:15] <[Mod]Divinity> 5 1/2 hours of talking :)
[01:26:22] <[Ind]Striker073> people in spirit would disagree
[01:26:25] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> yeah it is getting lates and as Mod you should rap it up
[01:26:28] <[NI]Salomo|busy> [0##:##] <+brado> what would a UN do about an alliance created strictly to go against another alliance? <-- nothing
[01:26:37] <[Ind]Striker073> and there are many spirit kingdoms around now
[01:26:37] <brado> so whats the point of having a UN
[01:26:44] <[TA]General_Red> Salomo that is not a crime
[01:26:50] <[Ind]Striker073> you don't see people going around gangbanging them
[01:26:51] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> we need a summation on temple and some topics to further review
[01:26:52] <[NI]Salomo|busy> i never said it was
[01:26:59] <[Ind]Striker073> many are in respectable alliances
[01:27:04] <[TA]General_Red> if it is not a crime
[01:27:09] <[TA]General_Red> why would we wanna stop it
[01:27:13] <[NI]Salomo|busy> exactly
[01:27:17] <[Lotus]Peppie> striker, you need to stop thinking in military terms
[01:27:30] <[Ind]Striker073> ?
[01:27:32] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> yeah this is a game after all
[01:27:40] <[Mod]Divinity> okay guys, be quiet for just a minute
[01:27:41] <[TA]General_Red> it is more than that
[01:27:45] <[TA]General_Red> else we would not be here
[01:27:47] <[NI]Salomo|busy> or rather, even if it was a crime, how could the "UN" stop it... only the indiviudal members could themselves stop it
[01:28:14] <[Mod]Divinity> okay
[01:28:19] <[Mod]Divinity> many of you have brought up some good ideas
[01:28:42] <[Mod]Divinity> why don't we close this session "officially"
[01:28:48] <[TA]General_Red> ok
[01:28:49] <[NI]Salomo|busy> ok
[01:28:51] <[Mod]Divinity> everyone who has thought of ideas can continue to develop these ideas
[01:28:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> no worries
[01:28:54] <[TA]General_Red> i got 1 question
[01:29:02] <[NI]Salomo|busy> too late, general
[01:29:05] <[NI]Salomo|busy> :-/
[01:29:09] <[TA]General_Red> its for the mods
[01:29:09] <[Mod]Divinity> if you want to try and work out some of the things, we can talk more tomorrow or in the days to come
[01:29:12] <[Mod]Divinity> I am always open to talk
[01:29:16] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> I propose that each alliance generates a report on what they thing can be done to improve the game
[01:29:18] <[TA]General_Red> did anyone bother to log all of this ?
[01:29:22] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> think even
[01:29:29] <[Mod]Divinity> lol I always log stuff
[01:29:32] <[Lotus]Peppie> [BsH]WhiteRabbit, that would be something for a later meeting
[01:29:34] <[TA]General_Red> cool
[01:29:35] <[NI]Tamolin> as do I
[01:29:41] <[Mod]Divinity> yes, each alliance can take what they want from this summit
[01:29:42] <[TA]General_Red> may i have a copy?
[01:29:44] <[Mod]Divinity> many things were brought up
[01:29:47] <[Mod]Divinity> some good ideas, some bad
[01:29:49] <[Mod]Divinity> think about them
[01:29:52] <[Mod]Divinity> and think on what you want to do
[01:29:53] <[Lotus]Peppie> ill put the log online
[01:29:59] <EnosUC> I thik alliances shourl make up reports on the topics discussed and then a future summit could be organized 
[01:30:01] <[Lotus]Peppie> its got no joins/parts bullshit in it
[01:30:10] <[Lotus]Peppie> also no mode changes
[01:30:12] <[Mod]Divinity> in a couple weeks we can come back together and see what the alliances wish to do
[01:30:23] <[Mod]Divinity> thanks Peppie :)
[01:30:28] <[Mod]Morgana> Sounds like a good idea Divinity
[01:30:34] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> that was my point Peppie, if the alliances did it now, then we could come to the table better prepared knowing what to expect
[01:30:43] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> heya Morgana, didn't see you here
[01:30:48] <[Mod]Divinity> this was a bit rushed, which is why it was a bit hectic
[01:30:55] <[Mod]Divinity> now that we know the things that each side wanted to talk about
[01:31:00] <[Mod]Morgana> I had to leave for a house fire hon and just got back
[01:31:01] <[Mod]Divinity> we can rethink our positions with the new information
[01:31:01] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> well it was a great first step
[01:31:03] <[Lotus]Peppie> i think you jsut didnt expect 550 people :P
[01:31:09] <[Mod]Divinity> and come to the table with perhaps some possible compromises
[01:31:18] <[Mod]Divinity> indeed I did not Peppie
[01:31:18] <[Mod]Divinity> lol
[01:31:22] <[Lotus]Peppie> it does show people care though, or at least are curious about these things
[01:31:33] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> hey General Red PM
[01:31:34] <[Lotus]Peppie> so optimism may be valid here
[01:31:34] <[Mod]Divinity> yep, which I am very happy about
[01:31:37] <[TA]General_Red> Divinity i think we need to start with simple basics to agree upon before we can move into some specifics
[01:31:37] <[Mod]Morgana> Ok I will read thru this tonight at what I missed while I was gone and get with my people
[01:31:46] <[Mod]Divinity> thank you everyone for coming, and a big thanks to the mods (especially nosaj for taking over while I was gone)
[01:31:58] * trooneh|brb is now known as trooneh
[01:31:59] <[Mod]Divinity> yes we do General_Red
[01:32:00] <[Lotus]Peppie> do some nice closing notes
[01:32:07] <[Lotus]Peppie> so i can save and upload the log
[01:32:17] <EnosUC> Great...I've been silent here but watching ;)
[01:32:30] <[Mod]nosajr> ffs
[01:32:34] <[TA]General_Red> ?
[01:32:37] <[Mod]nosajr> i don't think I have a brain anymore
[01:32:40] <[Mod]Divinity> lol
[01:32:41] <[Mod]nosajr> it's leaking out of my ears
[01:32:42] <[Mod]Divinity> <3 nosajr
[01:32:43] <[TA]General_Red> lol
[01:32:49] <[Mod]Divinity> I think that is basically it
[01:32:52] <[Mod]Divinity> just think over what was said
[01:32:55] <[Mod]Piro> nosaj ftw!
[01:32:59] <[Mod]Divinity> and be ready in a couple weeks to come back and try this again
[01:32:59] <[BsH]WhiteRabbit> General Red please read your pm
[01:33:03] <[Mod]Divinity> I am going to rethink how to do it better
[01:33:09] <[TA]General_Red> oosp
[01:33:10] <[Mod]Divinity> and maybe try to get some forums set up to talk about it there
[01:33:12] <[Mod]Divinity> a little cleaner
[01:33:28] <[Mod]Divinity> feel free to talk in your little groups and decide what your alliance wants to say
[01:33:34] <[Mod]Divinity> thank you and goodnight :)
[01:33:49] <[Mod]Divinity> okay, now the channel is no longer going to be moderated